Confusing chords, modes and melodies..

[Deacon_Blues]

I started to play around with 4-note chords on my new keyboard and today I wanted to play a chord for every note in the C major scale (the scale notes functioning as the root note in every chord). I found that this sequence sounded the most natural to my ears:

Cmaj7
Dm7
Em7
Fmaj7
Gmaj7
Am7
Bm7
Cmaj7
(Dmaj7)

The confusing thing is that the Gmaj7 and Bm use an F# and not an F. And the Dmaj7 uses also a C# which is even more confusing...

I think I now found my first use of the Lydian mode because of the sharp IV, it fitted the second octave much better than the natural IV. If I played only the 3rd in each chord above, I got an E phrygian scale. The 5ths gave me a G major scale (ionian), and the 7ths a B phrygian.

The diatonic chords didn't sound good in this little exercise. (That would have meant a G7 instead of the Gmaj7 and a Bm7b5 instead of the Bm7). They were too dominant-sounding, but I can't explain it any further. Could someone give a deeper explanation on this to me? I'm really confused....


I also tried a sequence with these 5-note chords:
Cmaj9
Dm9
Em9 (first non-diatonic)
Fmaj9
Gmaj9
Am9
Bm9
Cm9
(Dmaj9)

In this case the 9ths gave me a D ionian (major) scale.

I know now that these chords sound good but I have no clue why... guess that is what I'm seeking an answer to with this thread. Any input on this is highly appreciated, but now I need to go to sleep. It's past midnight here already...

[jaebee]

you are taking the diatonic triads and extending them all with the same interval, in your ffirst example a major or minor 7th, depending on the tonality of the triad.

in the second example, a 9th, which would be diatonic to all of the triads anyways(except technically the Em, but it only has a minor 2nd in relation to the phyrgian scale, the chord triad Em is usually expected to have a major 2nd unless the tune your playing is modal in nature (ie the melody will contain the minor 2nd for the Em, in this case F)

these chords sound 'better' to you than their true diatonic 7th counterparts (changing the G to dom7 and B to half dim) because you are mostly hearing their base triads.

try inverting them so that the 7th is the root note, and compare the sounds of those chords to the sounds of the diatonic 7th chords.

also, try playing a melody with only the C major scale (no outside notes) and then compare to see how your Gmaj7 and Bm7 sound after / overtop

answer in short, mostly your chords sound good because they are (mostly) diatonic to the key, and so naturally fit together as such.

[DocBop]

There is a Jazz improv approach very popular in the 70's called the Lydian Chromatic Concept by George Russell. His basic premise was Lydian is the true major scale. He has a whole book on the topic with charts and detailed on use of the approach. The book is real expensive (IMO) so I would suggest Google a bit and you should be able to find some more info on it.

[Deacon_Blues]

Originally Posted by jaebee

you are taking the diatonic triads and extending them all with the same interval, in your ffirst example a major or minor 7th, depending on the tonality of the triad.

in the second example, a 9th, which would be diatonic to all of the triads anyways(except technically the Em, but it only has a minor 2nd in relation to the phyrgian scale, the chord triad Em is usually expected to have a major 2nd unless the tune your playing is modal in nature (ie the melody will contain the minor 2nd for the Em, in this case F)

these chords sound 'better' to you than their true diatonic 7th counterparts (changing the G to dom7 and B to half dim) because you are mostly hearing their base triads.

try inverting them so that the 7th is the root note, and compare the sounds of those chords to the sounds of the diatonic 7th chords.

also, try playing a melody with only the C major scale (no outside notes) and then compare to see how your Gmaj7 and Bm7 sound after / overtop

answer in short, mostly your chords sound good because they are (mostly) diatonic to the key, and so naturally fit together as such.

Thanks for the reply.

I'll try those things when I come home today. I often do invert the chords as you suggested (i.e. the 7th down an octave), but I didn't do it in this exercise because I wanted to lay out the chords as clearly as possible.

DocBop: I'll check out the internet on that Lydian Chromatic Concept. Sounds interesting.

[liltommyg]

The Lydian Chromatic Concept for Tonal Organisation for Improvisation - ( cold sweat ruuning down my back , panic feeling getting stronger , room spinning - no no not again aaarrrrghhhh!!!!!!!!!

[middy]

Originally Posted by liltommyg

The Lydian Chromatic Concept for Tonal Organisation for Improvisation - ( cold sweat ruuning down my back , panic feeling getting stronger , room spinning - no no not again aaarrrrghhhh!!!!!!!!!

I had that book from the college library for a while. I feel your pain.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by liltommyg

The Lydian Chromatic Concept for Tonal Organisation for Improvisation - ( cold sweat ruuning down my back , panic feeling getting stronger , room spinning - no no not again aaarrrrghhhh!!!!!!!!!

I feel ya

I was cleaning some stuff recently and discovered I still have my copy of the book from way back when. A trip looking at the charts and overlays and such. All that and I boil it down to use Lydian as a default on major chords it sounds good and give me the F# avoid note. Then I discovered what some called back then the Overtone scale, which today is called Lydian b7 and is a mode of Melodic Minor. Dam I could of saved $30 back then.

But back then it was the hip thing Jazzer's were talking about. I remember classes and seminars on it. I don't see much stuff like that anymore, people really digging into improv concepts. Now its seminars on 1001 ways to play harmonic minor loud and fast. I'm waiting for Learning Annex to offer I TAB, Therefore I Rawk or I Sing the Body Electric In Modes.

The other big thing back then was Pentatonics in Fourths, a number of books on that back then. It is still way cool.

[BillMason]

Originally Posted by Deacon_Blues

I started to play around with 4-note chords on my new keyboard and today I wanted to play a chord for every note in the C major scale (the scale notes functioning as the root note in every chord). I found that this sequence sounded the most natural to my ears:

Cmaj7
Dm7
Em7
Fmaj7
Gmaj7
Am7
Bm7
Cmaj7
(Dmaj7)

The confusing thing is that the Gmaj7 and Bm use an F# and not an F. And the Dmaj7 uses also a C# which is even more confusing...

I think I now found my first use of the Lydian mode because of the sharp IV, it fitted the second octave much better than the natural IV. If I played only the 3rd in each chord above, I got an E phrygian scale. The 5ths gave me a G major scale (ionian), and the 7ths a B phrygian.

The diatonic chords didn't sound good in this little exercise. (That would have meant a G7 instead of the Gmaj7 and a Bm7b5 instead of the Bm7). They were too dominant-sounding, but I can't explain it any further. Could someone give a deeper explanation on this to me? I'm really confused....


I also tried a sequence with these 5-note chords:
Cmaj9
Dm9
Em9 (first non-diatonic)
Fmaj9
Gmaj9
Am9
Bm9
Cm9
(Dmaj9)

In this case the 9ths gave me a D ionian (major) scale.

I know now that these chords sound good but I have no clue why... guess that is what I'm seeking an answer to with this thread. Any input on this is highly appreciated, but now I need to go to sleep. It's past midnight here already...

If you're playing in the key of C there are no black notes in any of those chords. The GMaj7 doesn't exist in the key of C, it's a G7 (aka G Dom7). The DMaj7 also does not exist, it's the Dmi7 that you first played (the second chord in the list you posted).

Edit: Never mind, I just realized I'm spouting off without answer the question you asked, after I re read your post. :-)

[KayCee]

Originally Posted by Deacon_Blues

I started to play around with 4-note chords on my new keyboard and today I wanted to play a chord for every note in the C major scale (the scale notes functioning as the root note in every chord). I found that this sequence sounded the most natural to my ears:

Cmaj7
Dm7
Em7
Fmaj7
Gmaj7
Am7
Bm7
Cmaj7
(Dmaj7)

At a glance, it appears to me that you are modulating as you go along. You are using the Fmaj7 as a "pivot chord", which acts as both the IV in Cmaj and the bVIImaj7 in the key of G.

Once in the key of G, you get to the IVmaj7 and do the same thing: it becomes a pivot as the bVIImaj7 in D.

This type of interchange is used often as an alternative to dominant chords to set up new key centers.

[Deacon_Blues]

Originally Posted by KayCee

At a glance, it appears to me that you are modulating as you go along. You are using the Fmaj7 as a "pivot chord", which acts as both the IV in Cmaj and the bVIImaj7 in the key of G.

Once in the key of G, you get to the IVmaj7 and do the same thing: it becomes a pivot as the bVIImaj7 in D.

This type of interchange is used often as an alternative to dominant chords to set up new key centers.

Thanks! That sounds logical, also since the 5ths in each chord gives you a G major scale.

I need to start studying some jazz theory....

(I haven't heard the word "pivot" before, but I guess it means "transition" or something similar)

[KayCee]

Originally Posted by Deacon_Blues

Thanks! That sounds logical, also since the 5ths in each chord gives you a G major scale.

I need to start studying some jazz theory....

(I haven't heard the word "pivot" before, but I guess it means "transition" or something similar)

Yes, "pivot chords" are transitional in that the chord functions in both keys. Sort of a way to "dovetail" into a new key center, if that helps.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by Deacon_Blues

Thanks! That sounds logical, also since the 5ths in each chord gives you a G major scale.

I need to start studying some jazz theory....

(I haven't heard the word "pivot" before, but I guess it means "transition" or something similar)

Pivot chords comes from Modulations Wikipedia has a nice page on Modulation. Widipedia on Modulation

Modulation and Pivot chords are from both traditional and Jazz theory. The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine is a book I like. For traditional theory most like whatever they learned with. In my college days Harmony by Walter Piston was the book used. It's not bad, but like most college texts expensive. Piston is in its 5th edition, but I just picked up a used copy of the 4th edition for $3. I don't think traditional theory is changing that much so for $3 I'm all set.

[Deacon_Blues]

My chances to even find a used copy of that book here is minimal I think. I checked the internet pages of one of the biggest bookstores here, and they sell it for 63 €... I think I'll wait with it and spend 60 € instead on the Steely Dan concert next month...