Confusion about 7th chords

[zekimert]

Hello everyone,

I got confused when I checked the internet for playing 7th chords.

Some of them saying "Cmaj7 and C major 7 are completely different from each other". Is it a correct definition?

Some saying "C7 is = C dominant 7".

I made a little search in TB but I couldn't manage to find the answer to it.

Are there anybody who can show the notes for the chords listed below?

And which ones are referred as the same and which ones does not?


C7

C major 7

Cmaj7

C minor 7

C dominant 7

[Shor]

Cmaj7 and C major 7 are the same thing.
Here are the notes included with the intervals for the 3 type of 7ths you were talking about:
C7 = C dominant 7 = C (r), E (3) , G(5), A# (b7)
Cmaj7 = C major 7 = C (r), E (3) , G(5), B (7)
Cm7 = C minor 7 = C (r), D# (b3) , G(5), A# (b7)

[Schlyder]

Originally Posted by Shor

Cmaj7 and C major 7 are the same thing.
Here are the notes included with the intervals for the 3 type of 7ths you were talking about:
C7 = C dominant 7 = C (r), E (3) , G(5), Bb (b7)
Cmaj7 = C major 7 = C (r), E (3) , G(5), B (7)
Cm7 = C minor 7 = C (r), Eb (b3) , G(5), Bb (b7)

fixed that for you.
A# in a C7 and a C-7, and the D# in the C-7 chord is not correct.

[TC424]

Not to be picky, but I think it would be easier to understand if the third and seventh in the Cmin7 chord were written as Eb and Bb respectively. Also the seventh in the C7 should be Bb.

[Jhengsman]

C7 or C dominant 7 will have the a flat seventh in the chord, two half steps below the octave Bb

Cmaj7 or C major 7 will have the 7, B instead of Bb

Cmin7 a flat 3rd Eb instead of E and a flat 7, Bb

[cjmodulus]

Originally Posted by Schlyder

fixed that for you. A# in a C7 and a C-7, and the D# in the C-7 chord is not correct.

+1 while the notes might sound the same enharmonically, they must be spelled a certain way (as thirds) to be part of a triad or seventh chord.

[Schlyder]

Originally Posted by cjmodulus

+1 while the notes might sound the same enharmonically, they must be spelled a certain way (as thirds) to be part of a triad or seventh chord.

exactly... the OP wants clarification because he is confused. And that bunch of gobbledegook gets posted. and that is supposed to clarify things for the OP??

[dtsamples]

Better if you remove the "C" from the equation and just look how seventh chords are built.

Seventh chords are like regular triads, but with another 3rd interval on top.

Major 7 = 1,3,5,7
Dominant 7 (or just "7") = 1,3,5,b7
Minor 7 = 1,b3,5,b7

These chords are built around the Ionian, Mixolydian, and Dorian (or Phrygian, or Aolean) modes.

Ionian = 1,2,3,4,5,6,7
Mixolydian = 1,2,3,4,5,6,b7
Dorian = 1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7

So, just start on the root, and grab every other note and you have your seventh chords. Now if you want to add note names:

C Ionian = C,D,E,F,G,A,B
C Mixolydian = C,D,E,F,G,A,Bb
C Dorian = C,D,Eb,F,G,A,Bb

or if you want it in context:

C Ionian = C,D,E,F,G,A,B = I chord = Cmaj7
G Mixolydian = G,A,B,C,D,E,F = V(7) chord = G7
D Dorian = D,E,F,G,A,B,C = ii chord = Dmin7

If you use these chords and scales, you get the common jazz theme, ii - V(7) - I

The only thing difficult about this example is that since G Mix and D dor have all natural notes, it's hard to tell which notes are flattened compared to their respective Ionian modes.

[zekimert]

Originally Posted by Schlyder

exactly... the OP wants clarification because he is confused. And that bunch of gobbledegook gets posted. and that is supposed to clarify things for the OP??

well there's still some confusion.

I just want to be sure if everybody's ok with Cmaj7 and C major 7 are the same thing with the notes C(r), E(3), G(5), B(7)

and C minor 7 = C(r), Eb(3), G(5) and Bb (7)

@dtsamples, yes I totally understood how seventh chords are built:

Major 7 = 1,3,5,7
Dominant 7 (or just "7") = 1,3,5,b7
Minor 7 = 1,b3,5,b7

but people here saying that maj7 and major 7 are totally different chords. That's what gets me confused.

[onosson]

Cmaj7, C major 7, and even CM7 are all the same.

[zekimert]

Thank you very much for the assistance.

[Papa Dangerous]

Each seventh chord has a function within the scale, according to tradition theoretical approach (which is a lot of times learned, and then purposely forgotten to allow the composer/musician to have freedom over progressions, instead of sticking strictly to the rules.. So I can share some info, but it does not mean it HAS to be followed).

So for example, in major, the I chord (Tonic) will use a CMaj7 (major 7), and the V Chord (Dominant) with use G7 (dominant 7).

Perhaps the best way to learn them is learn how they are constructed. Their construction is based off of triads. So learn how to build all the triads (Major, minor, diminished, augmented) and then learn how to appropriately add the 7th chord to them. It is easier this way, because once you learn the formula, then you will know how to form any 7th chord, in any key. Give me a moment, and I can add some more info (if you would like), this is just an ice breaker for now.

[Schlyder]

Originally Posted by onosson

Cmaj7, C major 7, and even CM7 are all the same.

^this.... you may also see a Triangle, used to notate a major 7th chord.


**** Warning **** Derailment Ahead **** Warning **** Derailment Ahead ****

[Papa Dangerous]

Actually, I will take an excerpt from a previous thread I wrote.

"How to Build a chord

This process varies a little depending on the type of chord that you want to build. As always, we will start with a major chord, in the key of C, of course!
1) Take a look at the C major scale, and locate the tonic (C)
2) Find the Third (E)
3) Find the Fifth (G)

Nice and simple! We have a C Major chord! C E G!
How to build a minor chord? Well, take your C Major chord, and lower the third by a half step.
C minor C Eb G

Similar to this, we can build a diminished chord by taking a minor chord, and lowering the fifth by a half step!
C diminished: C eb gb

We also have augmented chords. To get these, you take the Major chord and raise the fifth a half step!
C Augmented: C E G#

If you are not too sure how of the scale you are working in, but still need to build a chord, there is a way of figuring it out! This method involves counting the amount of steps between each note.

Now that you know how to build a chord, I will show you the appropriate chords to use within the scales.

For a Major Chord start with Root, count 4 half steps to get to the Major 3rd. Then count 3 more half steps to get to the fifth. This method counts the amount of steps needed to take to get to the right note. By counting C as 1, you are counting the amount of tones between the root and M3rd. This is used for something different.

In C count: C#/Db (1), D (2), D#/Eb (3), E (4)
From the 3rd count 3 more half steps
From E count: F (1), F#/Gb (2), G (3)

For a Minor Chord start with Root and count 3 half steps to get to the minor 3rd then count 4 more half steps to get to the fifth. Take note of what is written above!

In C count: C#/Db (1), D (2), D#/Eb (3)
From the minor 3rd, count 4 more half steps
From Eb count: E (1), F (2), F#/Gb (3), G (4)

For a Diminished Chord start with Root and count 3 half steps to get to the minor 3rd then count another 3 steps to get to the diminished fifth.

In C count: C#/Db (1), D (2), D#/Eb (3)
From the minor 3rd, count 4 more half steps
From Eb count: E (1), F (2), Gb (3)

- You do not count Gb as F# in this situation because you are already using the F as the 4th, and cannot repeat a note name with a different quality.

For an Augmented Chord start with Root and count 4 half steps to get to the major 3rd then count another 4 half steps to get the raised fifth.

In C count: C#/Db (1), D (2), D#/Eb (3), E (4)
From the Major 3rd count 4 more half steps
From E count: F (1), F#/Gb (2), G (3), G# (4) ..."


"... Seventh Chords add a fourth note, and expand the chord. It is 1, 3, 5, 7

There are different types of seventh chords for different uses.
Types:
Major 7 (M/M 7): Root, M3, P5, M7
Minor 7 (m/m 7): Root, m3, P5, m7
Dominant 7 (M/m 7 aka 7): Root, M3, P5, m7
Diminished 7 (dim/dim 7, aka °7): Root, m3, °5, m7
Half Diminished 7 (dim/min 7 aka minor seventh flat five, m7♭5, -7♭5, ø): Root, m3, °5, m7
Minor Major 7 (mmaj 7): Root, m3, P5, M7
Augmented 7 (Min 7 #5): Root, M3, +5, m7

To choose the Major 7th note, play a half step before the root.
So in CM7, the M7 seventh tone is b.
To choose the Minor 7th note, play a whole step before the root.
So in cm7, the m7 seventh tone is bb (b flat)

NOTE:

Each seventh chord can have a specific use. Such as, say in C Major:
1st (Tonic) would use the M7 seventh chord - CM7
4th (SubDom) would use M7 seventh chord -FM7
5th (Dom) would use the 7 (Dom7) seventh chord - G7
2nd (Supertonic) would use m7 seventh chord - dm7
3rd (Mediant) would use the m7 seventh chord - em7
6th (SubMed) would use the m7 seventh chord - am7
7th (Leading) would use the ø7 seventh chord - bø7"

[MarTONEbass]

Originally Posted by dtsamples

Better if you remove the "C" from the equation and just look how seventh chords are built.

Seventh chords are like regular triads, but with another 3rd interval on top.

Major 7 = 1,3,5,7
Dominant 7 (or just "7") = 1,3,5,b7
Minor 7 = 1,b3,5,b7

These chords are built around the Ionian, Mixolydian, and Dorian (or Phrygian, or Aolean) modes.

Ionian = 1,2,3,4,5,6,7
Mixolydian = 1,2,3,4,5,6,b7
Dorian = 1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7

So, just start on the root, and grab every other note and you have your seventh chords. Now if you want to add note names:

C Ionian = C,D,E,F,G,A,B
C Mixolydian = C,D,E,F,G,A,Bb
C Dorian = C,D,Eb,F,G,A,Bb

or if you want it in context:

C Ionian = C,D,E,F,G,A,B = I chord = Cmaj7
G Mixolydian = G,A,B,C,D,E,F = V(7) chord = G7
D Dorian = D,E,F,G,A,B,C = ii chord = Dmin7

If you use these chords and scales, you get the common jazz theme, ii - V(7) - I

The only thing difficult about this example is that since G Mix and D dor have all natural notes, it's hard to tell which notes are flattened compared to their respective Ionian modes.

Well said,definitely Sticky worthy.

[bigboy_78]

Originally Posted by dtsamples

Better if you remove the "C" from the equation and just look how seventh chords are built.

Seventh chords are like regular triads, but with another 3rd interval on top.

Major 7 = 1,3,5,7
Dominant 7 (or just "7") = 1,3,5,b7
Minor 7 = 1,b3,5,b7

These chords are built around the Ionian, Mixolydian, and Dorian (or Phrygian, or Aolean) modes.

Ionian = 1,2,3,4,5,6,7
Mixolydian = 1,2,3,4,5,6,b7
Dorian = 1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7

So, just start on the root, and grab every other note and you have your seventh chords. Now if you want to add note names:

C Ionian = C,D,E,F,G,A,B
C Mixolydian = C,D,E,F,G,A,Bb
C Dorian = C,D,Eb,F,G,A,Bb

or if you want it in context:

C Ionian = C,D,E,F,G,A,B = I chord = Cmaj7
G Mixolydian = G,A,B,C,D,E,F = V(7) chord = G7
D Dorian = D,E,F,G,A,B,C = ii chord = Dmin7

If you use these chords and scales, you get the common jazz theme, ii - V(7) - I

The only thing difficult about this example is that since G Mix and D dor have all natural notes, it's hard to tell which notes are flattened compared to their respective Ionian modes.

Why would you even bring modes into this discussion? There is nothing about the chord theory question that was asked, that can't be explained using the Major Scale as a basis. Even a ii-V7-I is a concept of the Major scale. Nothing Modal about it.

[dtsamples]

Originally Posted by bigboy_78

Why would you even bring modes into this discussion? There is nothing about the chord theory question that was asked, that can't be explained using the Major Scale as a basis. Even a ii-V7-I is a concept of the Major scale. Nothing Modal about it.

I explained it the way I thought would be helpful to the OP-the way I wish someone had explained 7th chords to me from the get go. OP has already expressed that he/she was aware of how chords were built. That wasn't the impression I got from the original question.

Further, the standard seven modes are a concept of the major scale, too. Now we're debating semantics. But feel free to offer a clearer, simpler explanation, and the OP can disregard mine.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by dtsamples

I explained it the way I thought would be helpful to the OP-the way I wish someone had explained 7th chords to me from the get go. OP has already expressed that he/she was aware of how chords were built. That wasn't the impression I got from the original question.

Further, the standard seven modes are a concept of the major scale, too. Now we're debating semantics. But feel free to offer a clearer, simpler explanation, and the OP can disregard mine.

Well, IMHO the standard seven aren't really best understood as a concept of the major scale in any meaningful way (though you can derive them from that scale), nor are they mere aspects of that scale. They're best thought of as different tonalities--"keys" if you like, though like any scale they can be used as chord-scales if that's how you're rolling. Modes don't have anything to do with chord construction or function in functional diatonic harmony. It's not just a semantic thing.

Leave out the mode stuff entirely, specify at the beginning that by "1,2,3,4,5,6,7" you mean the 7 notes of the major scale, and your explanation is quite clear and correct. (Also closer to what the OP's originally asked.)

[dtsamples]

Well, if you don't reference the modes, it's harder to account for the shifting roots. If you build it all off the major scale, then

Major 7 = 1,3,5,7
Minor 7 = 2,4,6,1(8)
Dominant 7 = 5,7,9,11

Or you have to do this

.............[-------G7--------]
....[-----Dmin7-----]
[-----Cmaj7-----]
..............1......3......5.....b7
....1.....b3....5......b7
1......3.....5......7
C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 1

...and that was just a PITA to do, and it doesn't even look nice. Not the best way to explain theory on a text-based forum.

Either way, the trouble arises in that we use numerals to refer to the notes in the scale and the notes in the chord. People then get confused because they think 1 always refers to C.

True, you can explain this using C as the root in all examples, and then the note names reflect the flattened 3rd and 7ths, but that's not practical because, unless you're playing complex chord progressions, you aren't going to use Cmaj7, Cmin7, and C7 in the same song (at least not often). People learn different ways, but I found it easiest to understand 7ths (and to apply them practically) when I understood how the modes functioned relative to the major scale.

To me learning 7ths chords independent of the modes is like trying to learn cardiology independent of pulmonology or anatomy as a whole. You may know what a heart is, but you sure aren't going to be performing any surgery unless you understand how it functions in relation to the other systems.

[onosson]

Originally Posted by dtsamples

Either way, the trouble arises in that we use numerals to refer to the notes in the scale and the notes in the chord. People then get confused because they think 1 always refers to C.

I've always seen chords referred to with Roman numerals, e.g. I, IV, V, etc. Chord "flavours" are then noted with Indo-Arabic numerals, e.g. 7, 9, etc. Pretty easy to keep straight that way what a V7 (etc.) refers to.

Originally Posted by dtsamples

To me learning 7ths chords independent of the modes is like trying to learn cardiology independent of pulmonology or anatomy as a whole. You may know what a heart is, but you sure aren't going to be performing any surgery unless you understand how it functions in relation to the other systems.

I never learned a thing about modes when I started playing music 35 years ago (keyboards) or when I picked up guitar and bass 10 years after that... and can't say I've ever had any use for them. I don't recall anyone at any gig I've played *ever* referring to modes, and this is everything from rock to bluegrass to jazz to blues to country to ... you get the idea. I get their use "audibly", similar to alternative scales such as "gypsy jazz", Indian ragas, etc. but I don't think it's that necessary to put too much thought into them.