Connecting Scales and Chords

[Matt Till]

Alright, my chordal knowledge... I'm willing to admit, is super way beyond weak, last weak.

Anyways, I get the super basics: The root - 3rd -5th of a major scale = Major chord, minor scale = minor chord... where do these sevenths, added 6ths and so on come in?

I seventh chords would be a good place for me to start: It's tonally majorish, mainly due to the major third involved. But how is it the 7th? One (one being me in this case) would assume the 7th would be the seventh note of the scale: We'll use G7 as an example: I would assume it would be G, B, F#: But such is not the case, the F is natural... so is this now NOT major scaled?

I've been faking all this music stuff for too long. It seems there is no intermediate music theory. They either teach you C-major on the Recorder or they are dissecting Bach lute suites.

And before we go on NO there aren't any good bass teachers in the area and NO I can not afford one... even if it is a piano teacher just to teach me theory. As useful as comments like "find a teacher" are... I'd like to avoid them.

Any websites (preferred) or books would be welcome suggestions. Thanks.

[Freddels]

http://www.musictheory.net/ is a place to start.

Write out the notes of a major scale. C major is:

C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C

Basically, to make chords skip every other note (e.g., C E G B or D F A C, etc.).

A G7 chord is G B D F

[low5_er]

asHey, I know what you mean. I think a good website is studybass.com. The guys seems to be really thorough.

A lot of what you are talking about, I think, is just memorizing chord types and what scale degrees are attached to those chord types.
Jus think of your major scale as your reference for finding your notes, and then when you have to flat or sharp a degree to make a chord, you know which note you are manipulating.
eg

major = 1,3,5
minor= 1,b3,5
Dominant= 1,3,5,b7
minor7 = 1,b3,5,b7
major7= 1,3,5,7
minormajor7=1,b3,5,b7
flat5 = 1,b3,b5
half diminished = 1,b3,b5,b7
fully diminished = 1,b3,b5,bb7
sus2 = 1,2,5
sus4 = 1,4,5

There's also augmented chords, but I forget how those go. Shouldn't be hard to find out.
Hope it helps. Check the website out.
also, as far as the seventh goes, I think that every thime someone says 7, they mean flat seven, unless otherwise stated (ie major 7). It threw me for a loop too.

[Foxworthy925]

hm, flat seven? I always would think about a normal seventh chord as being the normal major chord (in whatever key) with a minor 7th thrown in. if major 7 chord, It'd be a normal major chord with a major 7th. if a minor 7 chord, it'd be a normal minor chord with a minor 7th thrown in. this is just how I was looking at it. can anyone tell me if this is correct?

[OrangeSun]

A G7, or G Dominant 7, is the chord derived from the Mixolydian Mode, the 5th mode of the major scale. It is called Dominant because it has a minor 7th and a major third.

The G mixolydian scale is spelled G A B C D E F G. We know immediately that it is a mode of C major because it has no sharps or flats.

The 7th chord you were mentioning in the OP is a Gmaj7, which is based off of the G Major scale. That would be spelled G B D F#.

The three basic and most common 7th chords are major 7, minor 7, and dominant 7. From there you can build and add more scale tones to further color the chord, for example a Gmaj7add9, which would be the same as the Gmaj7, but with an added 9th note, which is an octave above the second note in the scale, in this case A. So a Gmaj7add9 would be spelled G B D F# A.

You should look into studying the modes of the major scale, how they relate to each other and what they're different steps are. Also, I don't know if you play guitar or piano or anything other than bass, but being able to sit down with a different instrument and play the chords your trying to learn how to play under can be very helpful.

I hope that my response helped you in some way, and here are some sites you should definitely look at.

http://www.looknohands.com

This page is geared towards guitar but is easily applicable to bass and has a wealth of information:

http://scenicnewengland.net/guitar/chords/chords.htm

Heres the page in that site that pertains to 7th chords:

http://scenicnewengland.net/guitar/chords/seventh.htm

I myself learned 90% of my theory knowledge online and from friends. It is possible! Good Luck!

[Mark Wilson]

The way the names of chords are derived are pretty simple once they're laid out for you.

First, each scale degree has a different name.
1st degree = Tonic
2nd degree = Super Tonic
3rd = Mediant
4th = Sub Dominant
5th = Dominant
6th = Sub Mediant (or Super Dominant)
7th = Leading Tone

Now. If you take a Major Scale (C D E F G A B C) and build up every other note, you get C E G B, which is Cmaj7.

Here's where you question comes in. Why is it called a Dominant.
Well...A Dominant, as we see with the scale degrees, is the 5th degree. It's the most powerful chord in the major scale because of it's want to resolve back to 1.
if you build a 7th chord, starting on the 5th, you get G B D F. Which is a Gmaj7, with a flat 7th. Therefore, making it G7

Because any chord built up on from the 5th degree has this pattern (IN Major Scales) it's named a "Dominant" Type Chord.

Even when you get into Jazz Chords, they're laid out pretty simply.
If you see a G7, that means it's going to have a flat 7th, and a major 3rd.
When you see Cmin7, it's going to have a MINOR 3rd, and a FLAT 7th.
There's Cmin(maj7) Which means, it's going to have a MINOR 3rd, and a NATURAL 7th.

Feel free to PM me, or add me to MSN. I'll be glad to help you with anything you need!
My e-mail is in my profile

[darkfinger]

someone should sticky this...
thanks for posting this guys....ssssoooo helpfull
I was having the same trouble as the OP and you guys did an excellent job of explaing this stuff!

[gre107]

O.K. I see from time to time people are curious about harmony and chords in general. I am going to repeat some of that wich has been mentioned above but bear with me. I hope I will reveal some of the "mystery" of chords and their relationships to scales and modes.

All chords are derived/built from scales. Yes, it's that plain and simple.

Each scale tone is the starting point of a chord or mode.

The scale tones are referenced by a roman numeral (or number don't get caught up on it...) and are also refered to as scale "degrees".

So, with that said lets looks at everyones favorite scale. The C Major scale.

Note: C D E F G A B C
Scale Degree: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Roman Numeral: I II III IV V VI VII VIII
Distance to W W H W W W H
next note

Always remember the distance to the next note or scale formula. Each scale or mode is different. To know what the scale formula is for a specific mode is just start from the scale degree that the mode starts on and continue back to where you begin. (I'll explain this more later or in another posting)

W = whole tone (two frets)
H = half tone (one fret)


If you take a (any) scale degree and build a chord using the next every other note from that one you will have built a chord. Write these / this out on manuscript paper and things start to make a lot of sense. It really is very helpful and if you have a keyboard use it also to build and hear chords.

Normaly for diatonic (fancy word that means within the key) chords you will take three or four notes and build a chord.

So if we take the starting point of C and add the next two "every other" notes we end up with:

C E G

These three notes create a C major chord. But more importantly it is the space between the notes (intervals) that make the chord. This is where I hope the mystery will no longer be a mystery.

The interval (space) between the first note C and the second note E is a Major third or four semi tones (frets) Or two whole tones.

The next interval or space between E and G is a Minor third or three "semi" tones (frets) or one whole tone and a half tone.

So, with that said if you take any note to start with and add the note that is a major third above it and then add the note above the second note (the one that you just added to create the major third interval) at a minor third interval you have just created a major chord!

So, a major chord is a chord which consits of a major third interval with a minor third interval on top! Pretty cool huh?

Major 3rd + Minor 3rd = Major Chord

So, doing the same above but switching the inervals around so this time you have a Minor third with a Major third on top of it you will have a Minor chord.

Minor 3rd + Major 3rd = Minor Chord.

For example a minor chord of D minor is:
D F A
D to F = a minor third or three semi tones (3 frets)
F to A = a major third or four semi tones (4 frets)

If you do this (adding two notes above every scale degree) you will create the chords of the scale or mode.

When you do this with adding two notes you are creating triads and the chords created are as follows.

I chord = Major
II chord = Minor
III chord = Minor
IV chord = Major
V chord = Major
VI chord = Minor
VII Chord = Diminished

It will always work out this way! Pretty cool huh? Get out your ledger paper and check it out!

O.K. Seventh chords are pretty much simple to understand from here.

Take your triads and add one more interval to each triad above.

So, if you take the one chord C major wich is C E G that we now know is a Major third with a Minor third on top of it and add B (the seventh degree of the scale) to it which just so happens to be another major third you end up with a Major seventh chord.

So, now we know if we take a major third interval and add a minor third on and then a major third we will have a Major seventh chord! It allways works out this way! Pretty cool huh?

C to E = Major third
E to G = Minor third
G to B = Major third

When you take a major scale and create the seventh chords based off of the scale degrees you have:

I chord = Major 7
II chord = Minor 7
III chord = Minor 7
IV chord = Major 7
V chord = Dominant 7
VI chord = Minor 7
VII Chord = Minor 7 flat five or better known as a half diminished chord.

O.K. so what is different here than the triads? What the heck is a dominant chord or better yet half diminished? Well I'll tell you....

The dominiant chord or "five" chord ("V") is built like this:

G B D F

Major 3rd with a Minor 3rd with a Minor 3rd.

G to B = major 3rd
B to D = minor 3rd
D to F = minor 3rd

Compare this to the major seventh chord formula and you will see the last interval is minor instead of major!

The half diminished or Seven (VII) chord is:

B D F A

Minor third with a Minor third with a Major third.

B to D = minor 3rd
D to F = minor 3rd
F to A = Major 3rd

Cool?

So I hope this helps shed some light on chords and how they are built. Like I said if you write this out it starts to make a lot of sense.

Play these intervals on your bass so you can hear their difference and similarities.

Peace,

Gerry

[Matt Till]

Originally Posted by darkfinger

someone should sticky this...
thanks for posting this guys....ssssoooo helpfull
I was having the same trouble as the OP and you guys did an excellent job of explaing this stuff!

Agreed. This is some great info, thanks a lot everyone.

[Correlli]

One thing, out of Fundamental Harmony (Functioal Harmony), that I've alway found usefull are knowing and understanding Dissonant and Consonant tones.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by Kiwi Kid

One thing, out of Fundamental Harmony (Functioal Harmony), that I've alway found usefull are knowing and understanding Dissonant and Consonant tones.

Like everything in music what is dissonant or consonant depend on how the note or chord is being used. Also how mature your ear is. What is dissonant to someone who's only been listening to simple Rock won't be same as someone who has listened to Jazz and 20th century Classical.

Once again the answer is listening, experimenting, then analyzing what you like and don't like about what you listen too.

[mutedeity]

Here are some basic rules to go by that I don't believe anyone has posted regarding 7ths and so on. Yes they are based on that tones of the scale and such but there are some things to remember.

We have our basic triads, Major, Minor, Diminished, Augmented. I guess you know that much. Also we have our suspended 2 and 4

When it comes to the 7th chords there are some things to keep in mind

1. Unless it is stated we assume two things - firstly that our triad is major and our 7th is a b7.

2. 7th chords will contain all 4 tertian tones; 1 3 5 and 7 unless you are told to omit a tone. You might also think of these as a triad with a 7th added

3. There are two types of diminished chords so when we come to see the chord dim7 we break rule one (in a manner of speaking)

So when we apply these rules to the basic type of seven chords we see

Maj7 - we assume the triad is major, so the Maj refers to the 7th so we have the degrees {1,3,5,7}

min7 - we assume the 7 is minor, so the minor refers to the triad so we have {1,b3,5,b7}

7 - if we see a 7th chord as in G7, for example, we assume that the triad is major and the 7th is minor. Hence we apply only the 7 to the note the chord is based on. This is also known as the dominant, even if not used in the dominant context. Probably this is the most important 7th chord to get to know since it has quite a few contextual applications. The degrees are {1,3,5,b7}

minMaj7 - has a minor triad with a major 7th. The degrees are {1,b3,5,7}

Diminished chords -

There are two types of diminished chords, whole and half diminished

dim7 or Whole diminished has a diminished triad with a diminished 7 (bb7, which is enharmonic to the major 6th) it is written as dim7 the degrees are {1, b3, b5, bb7}

min7(b5) or Half diminished has to go by another name since whole diminished already is known as dim7. This means we have to break the rule that we assume the 7 is minor. The best way to express this chord is by using an enharmonic example that has been altered. Thus we call it m7(b5). We assume that the 7th is minor as in the formula mentioned before and we are instructed that the triad is minor as well. However we now flat the 5th which effectively gives us a diminished triad with a minor 7th. The degrees are {1,b3,b5,b7}

These are the main types of 7th chords. There are some other alterations that you can use but these will be spelled out in the chord.

9th chords, 11th chords and such will add on an extra tertian note so for example a 9th chord will have the 1st 3rd 5th 7th and 9th, unless you are instructed to omit a degree and the 11th will add the 11th on to that

6th chords are basically any chord with a 6th in them and have different applications depending on how they are used in context. Often they will be used as an enharmonic to an inversion chord.

I would suggest you read into 9ths and 6ths and so on further though since there is only so much I am willing to type. Also I agree with DocBop that consonance and dissonance are a matter of opinion, taste and context. Let me make a food analogy; is rhubarb bitter or sweet?

[ryco]

Originally Posted by Matt Till

And before we go on NO there aren't any good bass teachers in the area and NO I can not afford one... even if it is a piano teacher just to teach me theory. As useful as comments like "find a teacher" are... I'd like to avoid them.

Matt

I know you said avoid the "get a teacher" stuff, but I'm going to go there.

Maybe consider taking some theory classes at a local community college. The cost for single classes are fairly resonable.

It's one thing to have ppl posting a lot of good info, but it's really helpful to be in a classroom where everything is focused on this stuff and it's being applied step by step on a regular basis.

Or, if you insist, here's these:


http://www.activebass.com/

http://www.cyberschoolofbass.com/

http://www.cyberfretbass.com/index.php

http://aebersold.com/Merchant2/merch...Code=_HANDBOOK

http://www.studybass.com/

http://www.teoria.com/

http://www.musictheory.net/

http://bassplaying.com/

peace

[Correlli]

Originally Posted by DocBop

Like everything in music what is dissonant or consonant depend on how the note or chord is being used. Also how mature your ear is. What is dissonant to someone who's only been listening to simple Rock won't be same as someone who has listened to Jazz and 20th century Classical.

Once again the answer is listening, experimenting, then analyzing what you like and don't like about what you listen too.

I don't agree with you. There are well defined rules on what tones are dissonant and consonant. Check out the fundamentals of sound theory, which talks quite clearly about frequency ratios and dissonant and consonant tones.

Each to their own I guess. I prefer a 50/50 approach music. 50% music theory, and 50% ear training. That way I'm not shutting myself of to important infomation, either way.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by Kiwi Kid

I don't agree with you. There are well defined rules on what tones are dissonant and consonant.

Each to their own I guess.

As John Coltrane said... Dam the rules, its the feeling that counts!

What is your reference for the rules of discconant and consonant, what is the publication date. Not trying to be a jerk I'd like to read how someone defines those terms. I say those are things that are a work in progress constantly evolving.

[mambo4]

I took a music theory class in college and we spent 3 quarters doing baroque voice leading exercises, and only in the last week did a 7th chord get mentioned. Most of the classmates were guitar oriented and were frustrated with the lack of applicable material being presented.

I always recommend Marc Sabatella's Jazz Improv primer , where I REALLY learned my theory,as a great source for theory explanations that are practical and don't require notation reading skills.
http://www.outsideshore.com/primer/primer/

It's free online and you can buy a printed version.

[Correlli]

Originally Posted by DocBop

As John Coltrane said... Dam the rules, its the feeling that counts!

What is your reference for the rules of discconant and consonant, what is the publication date. Not trying to be a jerk I'd like to read how someone defines those terms. I say those are things that are a work in progress constantly evolving.

there's a very well respected author who wrote an article in Microsoft Encarta on the theory of sound.

[mutedeity]

I'm completely with DocBop on this one. Consonance and dissonance are subjective and a matter of context. If someone pens the rules of consonance and dissonance they are merely commenting on their own personal paradigm. The general attidude to consonance and dissonance has changed over time too.
One example I can give though is that it is generally accepted that an M3 is a consonant interval. Now if you were to compare the just intonation interval of a P3 to an M3 is it so consonant? Just like Rhubarb. Tastes pretty bitter on its own but add some sugar and it has a whole new context

[dlloyd]

Originally Posted by mutedeity

accepted that an M3 is a consonant interval. Now if you were to compare the just intonation interval of a P3 to an M3 is it so consonant? Just like Rhubarb. Tastes pretty bitter on its own but add some sugar and it has a whole new context

A 'P3'?

A just intonated major third sounds far sweeter than a tempered major third.

[mutedeity]

Sorry, I refer to a just intonation "major" third as a perfect third as a matter of paradigm. I don't care if it is academically correct or not since I am yet to see why a Pythagorean 5th or a 4th is perfect as opposed to a Pythagorean 3rd. The only validation I can think of is the circle of 5ths, but even at that you still have the Pythagorean comma to take into account. Which leads to my other point that a P5 and P4 are actually not perfect by 2 cents in even tempering anyway.