A couple of questions about the major scale

[mutedeity]

Originally Posted by slybass3000

The OP wants to know few things and he is not far from the true.
I know and he knows that there are seven differents pitches in the scale.
It is not totally wrong to call an octave the eight note because the symbol 8va does represent it !

No, slybass you are incorrect on this one. Otherwise we can say it has nine tones since technically the largest, non-compound, interval in diatonic harmony is the 9th.

SEVEN TONES.

[Mushroo]

We all know there are seven different tones in the major scale... however the prefix "oct" literally means eight, so it is not crazy to call the octave the 8th note. There is a linguistic precedent.

For what it's worth, I read a lot of music books for my job, and I'd say the authors are split about 50/50 whether to spell the major scale 12345678 or 12345671. I would argue that both are acceptable in common usage.

"Which will bring us back to... Do, a deer..."

[mutedeity]

Originally Posted by Mushroo

We all know there are seven different tones in the major scale... however the prefix "oct" literally means eight, so it is not crazy to call the octave the 8th note. There is a linguistic precedent.

For what it's worth, I read a lot of music books for my job, and I'd say the authors are split about 50/50 whether to spell the major scale 12345678 or 12345671. I would argue that both are acceptable in common usage.

"Which will bring us back to... Do, a deer..."

Yes, yes, but refer to my last post. If you can say there are eight notes you can say there are nine, and all the more so because the diatonic function of a ninth is different to the function of the second degree.

Therefore there are logically only seven and those that include the octave as the 8th note of a scale are incorrect.

Furthermore there is one perfectly good reason to include the octave in practical spellings of the scale, because unless it is played in context you are only playing six intervals. So when you see these authors adding the "8ve" to a spelling they are unlikely to be presenting the scale as having eight tones as opposed to having seven intervals.

[slybass3000]

Man,these discussions are hopeless!!!

I'll go back to my practice for the NHL All-Star game,

[Mushroo]

Originally Posted by mutedeity

Furthermore there is one perfectly good reason to include the octave in practical spellings of the scale, because unless it is played in context you are only playing six intervals. So when you see these authors adding the "8ve" to a spelling they are unlikely to be presenting the scale as having eight tones as opposed to having seven intervals.

That is a thought-provoking way of thinking about scales, that they are defined not so much by their notes as by the intervals between them. Thanks!

[mutedeity]

Originally Posted by slybass3000

Man,these discussions are hopeless!!!

I'll go back to my practice for the NHL All-Star game,

Yes, your track record for having a better argument than me in these situations isn't the best slybass. Maybe you should "listen" more than you "speak".

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by mutedeity

Yes, your track record for having a better argument than me in these situations isn't the best slybass. Maybe you should "listen" more than you "speak".

Ah com'on man.........
We all know that there is 7 pitches or notes in a standard major scale.
And very often we can take that octave like a extra note in the "pattern"
which makes the use of that old classical symbol 8va which represent an octave.

BTW if I wasn't listening like you are accusing me of,I wouldn't be a (working) musician,

[mutedeity]

Originally Posted by slybass3000

Ah com'on man.........
We all know that there is 7 pitches or notes in a standard major scale.
And very often we can take that octave like a extra note in the "pattern"
which makes the use of that old classical symbol 8va which represent an octave.

BTW if I wasn't listening like you are saccusing me of,I wouldn't be a (working) musician,

Yes and that refers to my final point in post 63. It also goes to what I said about the 9th.

But I thought this discussion was hopeless and you had to practice for a game.

[onlyclave]

I like turtles.

[cnltb]

I have so far seen the "8va" in scores where one is to play one octave up from where it's written. As an instruction.
I personally view the octave as part of the scale, but as said before...some don't.

[K'Ching]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

The intervallic makeup of the lydian mode is identical to the ionian, same as it is to the locrian, dorian, etc. They are all modes, or versions of, the same scale, just rearranged around a different tonic pitch. They all reflect the one major scale.

This is different with the minor scales - there are different intervals among the natural (which technically isn't even a scale separate from the major scale, since it's just modal aeolian), the harmonic and the melodic minors. This means in total amongst the three of them there are going to be 21 modes, and out of those modes, 9 of them will be "major", or having the major third. According to your logic, that means there are 9 major scales. This actually doesn't take into account other intervallic schema, such as the harmonic major, which has three more "major scales", bringing the total to 12. And this is only septatonic (7-note) scales, you can get into a lot more once you're toying with other numbered scales.

So yes. There is a single major scale. Not three. Not 12. One.

How can you say there are three minor scales, natural, melodic and harmonic, and then not acknowledge the harmonic major as a major scale? What makes the harmonic minor count as a minor scale, but the harmonic major doesn't count as a major scale?

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by K'Ching

How can you say there are three minor scales, natural, melodic and harmonic, and then not acknowledge the harmonic major as a major scale? What makes the harmonic minor count as a minor scale, but the harmonic major doesn't count as a major scale?

For one thing, you have to take standard usage and practice into consideration. You can say that certain modes and scales have a "major" quality to them, in that they possess the major 3rd and so forth--meaning that if you had to put the scale either in a major pigeonhole or a minor pigeonhole, with no other choices, you'd pick the former.

But that doesn't mean it's a major scale as the term is understood by millions if not billions of musicians. It doesn't change the fact that when a major scale is taught, requested, or referred to in the overwhelming majority of Western musical contexts, the standard major scale (=ionian mode) is what's meant. You can argue that it shouldn't be so, but it is so.

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by K'Ching

How can you say there are three minor scales, natural, melodic and harmonic, and then not acknowledge the harmonic major as a major scale? What makes the harmonic minor count as a minor scale, but the harmonic major doesn't count as a major scale?

We are acknowledging the Harmonic Major. We call it The Major Scale and it is Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti.

You probably don't realize this, but harmonic minor is used all of the time. Natural and melodic minor are a far smaller percentage. The scale sounds exotic when you play it by itself, but a V-i perfect authentic cadence is played it sounds very powerful because of the raised 7th step.

Things must have changed since I was in college. Back then there was one major scale and it was very easy to discuss.

[Mushroo]

Originally Posted by K'Ching

How can you say there are three minor scales, natural, melodic and harmonic, and then not acknowledge the harmonic major as a major scale? What makes the harmonic minor count as a minor scale, but the harmonic major doesn't count as a major scale?

There is no one single "minor scale" because the so-called "natural minor scale" doesn't work harmonically in classical music theory. You need to alter the natural minor scale (by raising the 7th, and sometimes the 6th) if you want a V-i cadence.

The major scale works just fine for a V-I cadence without alteration, therefore there is one single "major scale" and not a whole family of various "major scales." In fact, a V7-I cadence doesn't work with Lydian or Mixolydian--only the major scale (aka Ionian mode).

ps I am not familiar with the term "harmonic major scale"--what is it?

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by Mushroo

There is no one single "minor scale" because the so-called "natural minor scale" doesn't work harmonically in classical music theory. You need to alter the natural minor scale (by raising the 7th, and sometimes the 6th) if you want a V-i cadence.

The major scale works just fine for a V-I cadence without alteration, therefore there is one single "major scale" and not a whole family of various "major scales." In fact, a V7-I cadence doesn't work with Lydian or Mixolydian--only the major scale (aka Ionian mode).

ps I am not familiar with the term "harmonic major scale"--what is it?

It's a specialty scale (or set of intervallic schema, if I may be so esoteric) that is a resource in modern improvisation. In C it would be...

C D E F G Ab B

The modes of which would yield....

D: 1 2 b3 4 b5 6 7 (melodic minor b5, used over II-7(b5) in a cadence to a Imaj7. Kind of jarring with the natural 6 and 9 in there, so its definitely a modern sound)

E: 1 b2 b3 (#9) b4 (3) 5 b6 b7 (mixolydian b9 #9 b13, a nice all-purpose resource for V7 chords resolving to minor (or even major))

F: 1 2 b3 #4 5 6 7 (I've heard this one called the lydian diminished. This might be good to use on auxiliary diminished chords, like a Io7 resolving to I. It also might be an interesting substitution over a min(maj7) chord.)

G: 1 b2 3 4 5 6 b7 (mixolydian b9, a good chord/scale resource to use over V7(b9, 13) chords, or any V7 chord who's expected resolution is major.)

Ab: 1 #2 3 #4 #5 6 7 (George Russell calls this one the auxiliary augmented scale. I'm not sure what to call this, probably lydian augmented #9. It's certainly a interesting sound, probably one I'd use over a maj7(#5) chord, or the min(maj7) chord a minor third down from it.)

B: 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 bb7 (?? I don't know what you would call this, but this would probably be a good scale to use for an ascending diminished chord, such as a #Io7 or #IIo7, since most of the non-chord tones in the scale are diatonic to the key. A weird sound, but hey, the harmonic major is a weird scale)