A couple specific questions about using modes

[Balkan]

I know a lot of people have posted about the modes. i've read a bunch of the posts, but there's too much to read everything, so apologies if what I ask has already been answered.

I've been playing for many years, and I know all the modes and how they relate to the major & minor scale, but I don't rely on the modes too much except in the basic way that my basslines will often use notes in the scale that aren't reflected in the particular chord that the guitar or other instrument is playing (ie, I might use the 2, 4, 6 & 7 over a basic major triad). So I have two specific questions about using modes outside that context:

1. In terms of playing a bass solo, how common is it to use a different root note than the chord, or main chord. E.g. - take a simple song like "The Weight" by The Band which is in A Major, and the verse switches between A, C# & D. In soloing over that, would you stick to A Iolian, or might you used B Dorian, or E Mixolydian, which are both the A major scale but have different root notes than the chords?

2. Do people ever use modes that include notes that are not in the song's key? E.g. I've heard about people switching between the major and minor pentatonic scales of the same root note. Would you only do that over a chord/melody that's tonally ambiguous?

Thanks in advance.

[theshadow2001]

I haven't a clue about modes. But something that might help you and is part of constructing walking bass lines is the fact that beats one and three are the important beats and can contain notes from the chord at the time or the scale. While beats 2 and 4 are less important and notes outside of the key, chord or scale can be used as passing notes.

If you see the common riff below in C major notes outside the key exist on the and of 2 and the 4

 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +
----------------------
-3---------0-1-2-----
---2-3-4-5-----------
----------------------

Maybe not a great example of it but it's the quickest and easiest one that I can think of.

[mutedeity]

Originally Posted by Balkan

I know a lot of people have posted about the modes. i've read a bunch of the posts, but there's too much to read everything, so apologies if what I ask has already been answered.

I've been playing for many years, and I know all the modes and how they relate to the major & minor scale, but I don't rely on the modes too much except in the basic way that my basslines will often use notes in the scale that aren't reflected in the particular chord that the guitar or other instrument is playing (ie, I might use the 2, 4, 6 & 7 over a basic major triad). So I have two specific questions about using modes outside that context:

1. In terms of playing a bass solo, how common is it to use a different root note than the chord, or main chord. E.g. - take a simple song like "The Weight" by The Band which is in A Major, and the verse switches between A, C# & D. In soloing over that, would you stick to A Iolian, or might you used B Dorian, or E Mixolydian, which are both the A major scale but have different root notes than the chords?

2. Do people ever use modes that include notes that are not in the song's key? E.g. I've heard about people switching between the major and minor pentatonic scales of the same root note. Would you only do that over a chord/melody that's tonally ambiguous?

Thanks in advance.

As far as question 1 goes. I would say that it's a matter of perspective. If you are using the notes in a particular "key" then the mode you are using all comes down to how you are seeing the tonal centre in terms of which note is the point of resolution.
If you are playing over A Major for example and you are playing C# Phrygian against it then you might be looking to play C# on the 1 for example.

What you probably need to understand is that modality is about more than just the seven diatonic modes. Modality relates to any given scale and its relative modal permutations. Even chord inversions are a kind of modality. You are really just taking a series of relative notes and giving them a different context based on which note is the starting point.

I would say that your second question is about modality but not about modes in the sense that your first question is. What you are talking about is really alteration. Alteration is a way of changing the flavour or quality for a certain musical relationship. Each interval and chord relates back to the tonal centre. If you put a series of tones into a certain context you are conditioning the listener to hear those tones in relationship to the tonic. Now if you play a note that is outside of that context you are changing the "flavour" of the way that the tones relate to the tonic. For example if you play the minor pentatonic and add in the b5th you create tension.

[MarkTAW]

Work out the vocal line for the songs and figure out what it does. Work out any guitar solos - there's plenty of live versions of The Weight from all sorts of bands. Work backwards from there to figure out what "theory" supports those decisions.

You might also want to look at Creep by Radiohead, which has a very similar chord progression.

Saying much more than that is a "how deep does the rabbit hole go?" kind of question. Coltrane would answer this question in a very different way than Mozart than Louis Armstrong.

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by MarkTAW

Work out the vocal line for the songs and figure out what it does. Work out any guitar solos - there's plenty of live versions of The Weight from all sorts of bands. Work backwards from there to figure out what "theory" supports those decisions.

You might also want to look at Creep by Radiohead, which has a very similar chord progression.

Saying much more than that is a "how deep does the rabbit hole go?" kind of question. Coltrane would answer this question in a very different way than Mozart than Louis Armstrong.

THANK YOU. Someone finally points out that soloing over changes is not just regurgitation of a mode because it "fits the chord". Have you forgotten about the melody? Just because you're playing "Autumn Leaves" it doesn't mean you have to think C dorian F mixolydian Bb Ionian Eb Ionian A half-whole and just wiggle your fingers within those fret shapes. Or am I out of line because modern melody has a range of less than a fifth and so it can be discarded?

[hunta]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

THANK YOU. Someone finally points out that soloing over changes is not just regurgitation of a mode because it "fits the chord". Have you forgotten about the melody? Just because you're playing "Autumn Leaves" it doesn't mean you have to think C dorian F mixolydian Bb Ionian Eb Ionian A half-whole and just wiggle your fingers within those fret shapes. Or am I out of line because modern melody has a range of less than a fifth and so it can be discarded?

Right. What mode or scale you use depends on how "in" or "out" you want to play. Really you can play any note over any chord if that's the sound you want. There's some really dissonant stuff out there, sometimes you might pick the "wrong" mode intentionally so that it clashes. Aebersold has a nice chart that outlines different scales over certain chords in order of "outness". I can't say I've ever really used it, but it's interesting to think about.

Sometimes it's nice to play something unexpected. You can really make just about any note sound good depending on how you approach and resolve it. As long as you know where the box is when you need it.

[Balkan]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

THANK YOU. Someone finally points out that soloing over changes is not just regurgitation of a mode because it "fits the chord". Have you forgotten about the melody? Just because you're playing "Autumn Leaves" it doesn't mean you have to think C dorian F mixolydian Bb Ionian Eb Ionian A half-whole and just wiggle your fingers within those fret shapes. Or am I out of line because modern melody has a range of less than a fifth and so it can be discarded?

Actually, it's melody lines that first got me thinking about this. I'm not a singer, but based on the few songs I've tried to sing it seems that very often - even most of the time - the harmonic center of the melody is not the root of the chord but something like the third or the fifth, no? So I guess I was wondering whether it works the same way with standard guitar solos - ie ones that are not necessarily pushing musical boundaries.

I know I can go analyze other people's solos as well, and perhaps that's what I will do, but I was just curious whether there were any rules of thumb here.

[Aged_Clayman]

Doesn`t mean to hijack the thread, but I have a question too, thanks

You might also want to look at Creep by Radiohead, which has a very similar chord progression.

The progression, if I recall correctly, is G-B-C-Cmin, and I honestly don`t know why Cmin got here and what key is this. Can anyone clarify it to me, please?
Btw, I do understand that "whatever sounds right is right", but I`m just trying to understand why this sounds good and how can I use this effect later

[MarkTAW]

Originally Posted by Aged_Clayman

Doesn`t mean to hijack the thread, but I have a question too, thanks

The progression, if I recall correctly, is G-B-C-Cmin, and I honestly don`t know why Cmin got here and what key is this. Can anyone clarify it to me, please?
Btw, I do understand that "whatever sounds right is right", but I`m just trying to understand why this sounds good and how can I use this effect later

I wouldn't say "whatever sounds right" so much as "there's more to music than the 7 diatonic modes."

That's a very common chord progression, and one of the first I learned to recognize by ear.

IV - I is a cadence called "plagal" and one of a handful of standard cadences. It's also known as the Amen cadence because, well, if you've ever been in a Catholic church it's "Ahhh-men."

The IV-IVm-I adds the Eb passing tone CEG -> GBD. (E, Eb, D)

[Bearded Bugs]

Originally Posted by MarkTAW

The IV-IVm-I adds the Eb passing tone CEG -> GBD. (E, Eb, D)

You beat me to it

[Balkan]

OK - if I can re-hijack my own original thread, I'd love to hear a similar analysis of the chorus Comfortably Numb.

Verse is in Bm I think, and then the chorus is D,A,D,A / C,G,C,G etc. and all major chords. Assuming the whole song is in Bm / D maj, then the C doesn't belong at all, and there is no standard scale in which all four of those chords would be major.

Is the chorus changing keys when it moves to the C? Or is something else going on?

[Bearded Bugs]

Originally Posted by Balkan

OK - if I can re-hijack my own original thread, I'd love to hear a similar analysis of the chorus Comfortably Numb.

Verse is in Bm I think, and then the chorus is D,A,D,A / C,G,C,G etc. and all major chords. Assuming the whole song is in Bm / D maj, then the C doesn't belong at all, and there is no standard scale in which all four of those chords would be major.

Is the chorus changing keys when it moves to the C? Or is something else going on?

I'm not too familiar with the song so I don't know the details, but maybe the song's in G major so the shift from Bm to C would be alright (maybe they use B phrygian stuff)... but then I guess the A major chords wouldn't be quite "normal" if the song's in G major... I dunno, hopefully the dude who beat me to posting about the passing tone will know lots and lots

EDIT: I just listened to the song, and you're right, the verse is in Bm, then the pre-chorus or chorus shifts to it's relative major the D major, as you said.... but then I think the change to the C major and G major is a key change, also as you said haha

When the chorus changes back straight into the verse you can really hear the change of key.

[MarkTAW]

It sounds to me like they're modulating the Dmaj Amaj part down to C G. The vocals are more or less the same over each, just transposed down a step.

By the time you get to C, you've been firmly in the key of D for a while. The sort of tricky bit is reconciling the Amaj Cmaj progression (Amaj having a C# in it). But since the vocals are SO strongly E and occasionally A over the Amaj chord, the C# is really just a sort of passing tone from D to C. Besides, who's going to quibble over the majorness or minorness of a 7? (assuming the key of D major)

Then by the time you get back to the verse you've been in D for long enough that the transition isn't too abrupt.

It's sort of the old blues "up a step" thing (think: Tequila) in reverse.

[improvpwnd]

Originally Posted by Aged_Clayman

Doesn`t mean to hijack the thread, but I have a question too, thanks

The progression, if I recall correctly, is G-B-C-Cmin, and I honestly don`t know why Cmin got here and what key is this. Can anyone clarify it to me, please?
Btw, I do understand that "whatever sounds right is right", but I`m just trying to understand why this sounds good and how can I use this effect later

I get the Cm thing with the passing tone, but shouldn't the B be minor if we're in Gmaj or Cmaj?

[Bearded Bugs]

Originally Posted by improvpwnd

I get the Cm thing with the passing tone, but shouldn't the B be minor if we're in Gmaj or Cmaj?

If we're in Cmaj then the B should be a diminished, if we're purely talking triads that is... but you're right I guess if we're in Gmaj the B should be a minor, I say 'should' very loosely...