Creating a riff - time

[kr0n]

Lately I've been playing with a few drummers and they seem to struggle when I come up with a riff in odd time, be it 5/4, 7/8 or 9/8s. I usually keep it very simple with steady 8ths letting them hear the repeat easily. I often end up adding more notes to "fit" 4/4 in few bars to make it easier, which alters what I imagined.

When you create a riff, without having prior chord progression or anything, from the scratch, do you consider time signature first or try to fit it into 4/4?

What I tend to do is to wiggle my fingers and listen to how it sounds, ignoring time totally and when I feel I have found the notes I like I hone the lengths of notes and articulation and THEN figure out the time for that particular riff. After that I start to figure out what scale does it fit to and so on.

Am I doing this the wrong way or making it too complex? After spending much time studying theory on my own I'm beginning to be very liberal with stuff I come up with when I can basically fit theory into what I play instead of fitting playing into theory.

[chanson]

I occasionally will come up with a riff that isn't in 4/4 and don't even realize it until I put it in guitar pro or something. Basically, I would suggest not thinking too much about what you're playing and just play from your heart. Don't worry about time signatures, chord progressions, etc. As long as it sounds good to you, and it comes naturally, you can't go wrong.

I'm not sure if this helps you, I was a bit unsure what you were asking..

[kr0n]

Originally Posted by chanson

I'm not sure if this helps you, I was a bit unsure what you were asking..

Well, I was asking how people form riffs from scratch, without background of any sort (chord progression, rhythm, lyrics, anything), just a line that sounds good.

I get the feeling everyone thinks 4/4 is the only time sig out there

[MalcolmAmos]

Depends on what type of person you are. I'm a structured kinda guy. So I have something in mind before I start. I would never wiggle my fingers and then decide what key this all happened in. I pick a key and then wiggle my fingers - within the key. Yes I probably do get trapped in my 3/4 and 4/4 World, but, I'm comfortable there.

I can not function the way you do and I would guess you can not function the way I do. Does not really matter it's the finished product that counts.

Now how do I form riffs - If this is a new song my riffs will come to life with the melody and the melody is the last thing I work up. The story comes first, with out the story no need for the song. Lyrics and the verse structure come next. After the lyrics are in place a chord progression is developed. I IV V I and I are friends through out the first draft. Next comes melody and my melody is based upon chord tones and things that I know work. The chords and melody have to harmonize each other. If they share some notes they do. So I make sure they do. Some would call this a back door approach.

If I'm working up bass line riffs to established tunes (covers) I rely upon the established chord progression that goes with this song. My bass riffs will revolve around chord tones R-3(b3)-5 perhaps 7(b7). I'm heavy into pentatonic licks and characteristic mode notes, Lydian's #4, Mix's b7. Why, I know they will work. I'm very aware of the measures and time signature. Licks should fit within the measure(s). Most of my World is 3/4 and 4/4. I think what you have run into is a lot of us are comfortable there and resist change.

You asked ......

Good luck.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by kr0n

Lately I've been playing with a few drummers and they seem to struggle when I come up with a riff in odd time, be it 5/4, 7/8 or 9/8s. ...

Well, I think this shows you why drummers like John Bonham are held in such high regard, as they could play this kind of stuff and make it sound as easy as 4/4 - not many as good nowadays...sadly

[kr0n]

Most of the music world does seem to revolve around 4/4 and it is perfectly acceptable, it's the easiest for me also.

I'm more mathematically inclined and numbers and rules fit my head well so theory is rather easy. Putting it to use is something I'm still figuring out so I probably fail to see some of the obstacles hidden within theory. But I tend to consider theory to be there to explain music, not to define it.

Currently I don't have a guitard or any other melody-makers to play with so key / chords aren't so important to my theory-limited drummers. I try to think while I'm playing but getting to more complex things is obviously hard. And seems most of my "peers" view theory as a limiting aspect in "feeling the music" but I generally ignore those comments.

This key thing is also weird. There's tonal and atonal music, key changes within a piece, chromatic approaches, weird scales that differ from the major scale. Basically anything you can think of, you can explain with theory, if you want to.

I'm getting off topic here a lot.

Anyways, time is an elusive thing as well. There's several ways to mark down the music you make, changing tempo, time sig, note lengths you get the same piece that sounds exact but with different symbols. Heck, if you run 5/4, in 4 bars you have 20 beats and with 4/4 you have 20 beats in 5 bars.

Now there's a difference in there for sure but I think you get the idea. Just 2s and 3s...'

MalcolmAmos' reply was in the direction I was hoping, hearing how people formulate riffs on the spot without prior set of rules. Or do you do that at all?

Sorry, this ended as a general rant but I would really like to discuss these things with someone.

[michaelc]

When I make up a riff, it often end up being in odd time if I don't have particular feel in mind when I start writting.

The best way to get around the drummer issue is just not to tell him. The drummer I've been playing with for the last 8 years can roll with any time/feel I can throw at him, as long as I don't tell him what it is.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by kr0n

MalcolmAmos' reply was in the direction I was hoping, hearing how people formulate riffs on the spot without prior set of rules. Or do you do that at all?

Most of my bass playing is cover stuff and most of it is jamming a bass line on the fly. Once I know the key I'll grab a repetitive root until I hear a couple of measures, by then I've decided what riffs I'll use. This revolves around 6 or 7 generic "go to" riffs and if I have a problem with the song the ole tonic pentatonic scale bails me out.

[wetzelman1]

i've been playing with both a guitarist and drummer who like to experiment with weird timings. Usually what we do is come up with a riff, jam it out, if something seems boring about it but we still like it, we'll start throwing in some different notes or taking some away, usually in a thoughtful pattern to create some strange time signatures. We've been doing this for a while now so my thought pattern has just recently gotten me writing riffs in weird timings from the start.

[Danny Fox]

I think it's great to play and study music in "unused" time signatures, you never know what you may have to play in the future. I benefited alot from studying Weather Reports tracks in odd times.

[tZer]

I am fortunate - my drummer is very skilled and LOVES complex time signatures.

As for me and how I approach riffing - it usually starts with the time signature - not the other way around (riff, riff, riff, riff, riff... hey, that's cool! What's the sig?) For me it's more like "Let's do something in 5 or 9 - then create a riff that fits the sig. That way the drummer can establish his beat based on a known quantity.

But I know how challenging it can be to have someone riffing in an odd time sig without really being able to hear exactly what the time sig is and having them wait for you to climb on board.

I'd suggest you create your riff, figure out the time sig and hip your drummer up. Then let him establish his groove in that time and you join him.

Maybe?