Diatonic 7th Chord progression question(s) LONG

[tpmiller08]

In the key of F, would it go :
Fmaj7
Gm7
Am7
Bbmaj7
C7
Dm7
Em7b5
Fmaj7

Im really curious about the C7. Up until I read on 'Bass Guitar Chords by Ron Middlebrook' I thought it was Cmaj, but it does make sense because C7 would include the Bb found in the F Major Scale. Just want to make sure I'm not off here.

And a few more n00b questions:

What would the progression be if it was in F minor? Fm7 - GM7 - AM7 - Bbm7- (Cm7?)- DM7 - (EM7b5?) - Fm7 | Not sure what to do with the C7 or Em7b5 if it's in the key of any minor.

For Triads, would the progression be the same? If so, would the C7 become a C Major? This might be where my confusion came from.


Thanks for any help, sorry for the 90 different questions.

-Troy

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by tpmiller08

In the key of F, would it go :
Fmaj7
Gm7
Am7
Bbmaj7
C7
Dm7
Em7b5
Fmaj7

Im really curious about the C7. Up until I read on 'Bass Guitar Chords by Ron Middlebrook' I thought it was Cmaj, but it does make sense because C7 would include the Bb found in the F Major Scale. Just want to make sure I'm not off here.

And a few more n00b questions:

What would the progression be if it was in F minor? Fm7 - GM7 - AM7 - Bbm7- (Cm7?)- DM7 - (EM7b5?) - Fm7 | Not sure what to do with the C7 or Em7b5 if it's in the key of any minor.

For Triads, would the progression be the same? If so, would the C7 become a C Major? This might be where my confusion came from.


Thanks for any help, sorry for the 90 different questions.

-Troy

the best way to work them out is to find the relative minor to the major key.....based on the sixth interval of the major scale......so in C major the relative minor is A minor.....all the notes will be the same notes as the major key.....go up the scale of A minor the next is B then using the C major notes build your next scale.....R357 of that scale will give you the chord B half diminished or Bminor 7b5

[Chupacabra]

The F major bit is correct

F minor would be
Fm7
Gm7b5
Abmaj7
Bbm7
Cm7
Dbmaj7
Eb7
Fm7

& the C7 would be a Cmaj triad, yup.

[champbassist]

Originally Posted by tpmiller08

What would the progression be if it was in F minor? Fm7 - GM7 - AM7 - Bbm7- (Cm7?)- DM7 - (EM7b5?) - Fm7 | Not sure what to do with the C7 or Em7b5 if it's in the key of any minor.

You got the chords right in the major key. In a minor key, just think of the parallel major. For example, the notes in F minor are identical to Ab Major, thus the latter is the parallel Major of the former. So, diatonically, F minor would have the same 7th chords as the Ab major scale, i.e. Fm7, Gm7b5, Abmaj7, Bbm7, Cm7, Dbmaj7, Eb7 then back to Fm7.

And yes, triads are the triads contained within the seventh chords. The dominant and major seventh have a major triad, the minor 7th has a minor triad, the m7b5 has a diminished triad.

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by Chupacabra

The F major bit is correct

F minor would be
Fm7
Gm7b5
Abmaj7
Bbm7
Cm7
Dbmaj7
Eb7
Fm7

& the C7 would be a Cmaj triad, yup.

and the F minor scale would be built from the notes of Ab major which contains 4 flats

[tpmiller08]

All great replies, clears it all up. I could also Look at F minor, go to the m3, and be able to tell that it's Ab. Can I find any relative Major from the m3 of any minor scale?

[Chupacabra]

Originally Posted by tpmiller08

All great replies, clears it all up. I could also Look at F minor, go to the m3, and be able to tell that it's Ab. Can I find any relative Major from the m3 of any minor scale?

Yep, relative majors/minors are all the same - the 6th degree of a major scale gives you the relative minor & the flat 3rd of the minor scale takes you to it's corresponding relative major

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by tpmiller08

All great replies, clears it all up. I could also Look at F minor, go to the m3, and be able to tell that it's Ab. Can I find any relative Major from the m3 of any minor scale?

yup....all the relationships are the same.....once you figure out one scale and it's relative minor.....do 'em all......finding and learning the chords based on those scales is the thing

[JTE]

Do this... Write out the scale in two octaves on a piece of paper. Then repeat it above, moved over by a third, and again, and again...

You'll get this (in C because it's easier to type)

C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C

... then this...

E F G A B C D E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C

... then this...

G A B C D E F G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C

... then this...

B C D E F G A B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C

NOW- look at each of those stacks, and use your knowledge of basic chords to figure out what each chord is. The first one is C E G B, that's 1, 3, 5, 7 of C, so it's a C major 7. The second is D F A C, that's 1, b3, 5, b7 of D, so it's a Dmin7, etc. They're always the same BTW....

That is WHY it's Cmaj7, Dmin7, Emin7, Fmaj7, G7, Amin7, Bmin7b5.


7 1 2 3 4 5 6
5 6 7 1 2 3 4
3 4 5 6 7 1 2
1 2 3 4 5 6 7

This never changes. Learn it, own it. It will be more useful in the real world than all seven modes.

John

[onlyclave]

More often than not, the diatonic 7th chords in a minor key are:

i mi7
ii mi7b5
III ma7
iv mi7
V7 <- Major quality chord
VI ma7
vii dim 7

So in F minor:

Fmi7
Gmi7(b5)
Abma7
Bbmi7
C7
Dbma7
Edim7

That raised 7th scale degree (E in this case) gives you the leading tone 7th which has a much stronger V-i cadence than v-i.

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

More often than not, the diatonic 7th chords in a minor key are:

i mi7
ii mi7b5
III ma7
iv mi7
V7 <- Major quality chord
VI ma7
vii dim 7

So in F minor:

Fmi7
Gmi7(b5)
Abma7
Bbmi7
C7
Dbma7
Edim7

That raised 7th scale degree (E in this case) gives you the leading tone 7th which has a much stronger V-i cadence than v-i.

i'm confused about the V......should it not be a minor 7

[JTE]

Depends... If you're harmonizing the natural minor, you get the same chords as the relative major- i.e., A natural minor gives you the chords Amin7, Bmin7b5, Cmaj7, Dmin7, Emin7, Fmaj7, and G7. That G7 pulls your ear to the C, not the Amin. So, to disrupt that (i.e. for harmonic reasons) the Harmonic minor scale developed. Raising the G to G# both obliterates the G7, but makes the fifth chord a dominant 7 (E7) which pulls you to the Amin7.

Write out both of the natural and harmonic minor scales like I showed in the earlier post, figure out each of the 7th chords, and compare them to each other.

John

[mambo4]

What JTE said.

Realize that there is more than 1 minor scale commonly used.

You are technically correct:
Diatonically, it's the natural minor with v7 min and bVII dom7.

But commonly, especially in Jazz, the Harmonic minor (minor with #7) is used , yielding a V dom7

[Richard Lindsey]

To add to that, sometimes the notes and chords from what we refer to as the melodic minor scale (with the natural, i.e. nonflatted, 6 and 7) are used.

Minor is tricky that way.

The way we commonly teach these scales can lead you to think that there are three different ways of "doing" minor keys. Sometimes that's more or less the case; however, often the best way to think of it is as an overarching "composite minor" tonality that can, depending on the effect desired, make use of either the major 6 or the minor 6, and either the minor 7 or the major 7. (Somewhere there's a good post by HaVIC5 on this.)

So in F minor, for example, it's not unknown to see a IV chord with major quality (Bb7 rather than the "expected" Bbm7), though likely not nearly as often as you'd see a V chord with major quality (C7 rather than the "expected" Cm7), for the reasons other posters have mentioned.