Diatonic chords for harmonic minor scales

[over_the_moon]

I'm trying to figure out the diatonic chords of a harmonic minor scale and I have some triads that I can't figure out how to name. They don't fit the definitions that I have of the usual major, minor, aug, dim chords.

It looks like the 4 chord is composed of a m3 and P4. What would that chord be called? Minor suspended?

Then, it looks like the 5 and 6 are both composed of a P4 and a m3. What is THAT called?

There's always the possibility that I have my definitions wrong. I have a harmonic minor defined as:

1 2 ↓3 4 5 ↓6 7 8

OR:

R W H W W H W+H H

Is this right? Help! Thanks!

[Richard Lindsey]

Try it with A minor. You get the following triads (forget about the 7ths for now):

A C E
B D F
C E G#
D F A
E G# B
F A C
G# B D

None of these triads is of a type other than the ones you mentioned in your original post.

[over_the_moon]

Bah! Nevermind. My math was wrong. Those aren't P4s, they're M3s.

[over_the_moon]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

Try it with A minor. You get the following triads (forget about the 7ths for now):

A C E
B D F
C E G#
D F A
E G# B
F A C
G# B D

None of these triads is of a type other than the ones you mentioned in your original post.

Is that right? Wouldn't it be: Amin, Bdim, Caug, Dmin, E, F, G#dim?

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by over_the_moon

Is that right? Wouldn't it be: Amin, Bdim, Caug, Dmin, E, F, G#dim?

Yes, except that it's Caug.

[over_the_moon]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

Yes, except that it's Caug.

Got it. Thanks!

[Papa Dangerous]

I remember in my theory class, that my teacher said it was common practice amongst composers to play a M3 rather than a +3. I understand the function of the (G# in this case) as a raised seventh degree making the Major Second feel between the seventh and octave. As well as the G# making the fifth a Major chord (opposed to minor in natural minor) but when the third is played as a chord, it is common to lower the G# to a G.

Has anyone else found this bit of information before? I am about 99% sure that is what I was taught. So, that is another option to work with when composing

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Papa Dangerous

I remember in my theory class, that my teacher said it was common practice amongst composers to play a M3 rather than a +3. I understand the function of the (G# in this case) as a raised seventh degree making the Major Second feel between the seventh and octave. As well as the G# making the fifth a Major chord (opposed to minor in natural minor) but when the third is played as a chord, it is common to lower the G# to a G.

Has anyone else found this bit of information before? I am about 99% sure that is what I was taught. So, that is another option to work with when composing

Yes, I would say so. What I said was correct in terms of the requirements of the specific exercise, but it's not an all-encompassing description of the use of minor tonality.

In a sense, the way in which we divide the minor into natural, harmonic, and melodic is kind of artificial. Minor tonality can include all of them. In practice, the great composers, when composing in say A minor, could and did use both F and F# and both G and G#, depending on what they needed to do at a given point.

Somewhere there's a great post by HaVIC5 on the concept of the "composite minor." Worth looking up.

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by Papa Dangerous

I remember in my theory class, that my teacher said it was common practice amongst composers to play a M3 rather than a +3. I understand the function of the (G# in this case) as a raised seventh degree making the Major Second feel between the seventh and octave. As well as the G# making the fifth a Major chord (opposed to minor in natural minor) but when the third is played as a chord, it is common to lower the G# to a G.

Has anyone else found this bit of information before? I am about 99% sure that is what I was taught. So, that is another option to work with when composing

Close, but to be right on (unless I got you wrong) I would like to add that in classical harmony (from the 18th century onward) the raised 7th was seen as a necessity to create the authentic cadence V7- i.
This practice found it's way to popular music, since in 'ordinary' songs in minor keys V7 - i is a very normal ending.

Before the classical period, v7 - i was very commonly used. It s still very present in folk music, where modalharmonies frequently occur.

[Groove Master]

From my experience the most useful degrees in the harmonic minor are the ii and v. These two modes/scales are the ones that define a minor key. As far as names for them, there are no specific yet but the term Jewish scale for the fifth degree is getting a lot of talk

[Papa Dangerous]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

Yes, I would say so. What I said was correct in terms of the requirements of the specific exercise, but it's not an all-encompassing description of the use of minor tonality.

In a sense, the way in which we divide the minor into natural, harmonic, and melodic is kind of artificial. Minor tonality can include all of them. In practice, the great composers, when composing in say A minor, could and did use both F and F# and both G and G#, depending on what they needed to do at a given point.

Somewhere there's a great post by HaVIC5 on the concept of the "composite minor." Worth looking up.

Very True. The masters of the art can use any note in any scale and in any key and make it crisp. I mean honestly, is that not how music involved? During the 1300s Gregorian chant was only I IV V progressions until the English came in with the concept of 3rds and 6ths. They were breaking practice and making room for more notes.

I will definitely check out that post by him! Thanks for the inside goods!

Originally Posted by Chris K

Close, but to be right on (unless I got you wrong) I would like to add that in classical harmony (from the 18th century onward) the raised 7th was seen as a necessity to create the authentic cadence V7- i.
This practice found it's way to popular music, since in 'ordinary' songs in minor keys V7 - i is a very normal ending.

Before the classical period, v7 - i was very commonly used. It s still very present in folk music, where modalharmonies frequently occur.

You are 100% correct my friend. Perhaps I was misleading on the comment. The raised seventh degree is a beaut of note in the Dominant chord. The sound of completeness of a Dom 7 going to the Tonic, especially when the the root of the tonic is in the soprano voice, is... well perfect! (Did ya see what I did there? xD [gotta love word nerdy word play] )

I was referring to the III+ chord. The seventh scale degree is the fifth of the mediant. In A harmonic minor, the seventh scale degree is G#. The mediant is C, thus C E G#. This is the common practice where you can simply play the G# as G. It avoids the use of the Augmented chord, and is sub'd by a Major. It is not required for a person to do it, it has just become part of practice for many.

[FretlessMainly]

Originally Posted by over_the_moon

Is that right? Wouldn't it be: Amin, Bdim, Caug, Dmin, E, F, G#dim?

Just a point of clarification here: a diminshed chord must consist of four pitches, so to correct, it would be Bmin(b5) and G#min(b5). In my mind, you could add the 7th chord tone to express them as they are more commonly seen (e.g., Bmin7(b5)). But to assume that b d f represents a diminished chord is too much of a stretch - it's more likely that bdf is closer to a ii chord in a natural minor modality.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by FretlessMainly

Just a point of clarification here: a diminshed chord must consist of four pitches, so to correct, it would be Bmin(b5) and G#min(b5). In my mind, you could add the 7th chord tone to express them as they are more commonly seen (e.g., Bmin7(b5)). But to assume that b d f represents a diminished chord is too much of a stretch - it's more likely that bdf is closer to a ii chord in a natural minor modality.

Actually, not quite true. The OP was perfectly correct. What you're talking about is a diminished 7th chord, which is different. A diminished 7th chord consists of 4 pitches, since it's a 7th chord, but a diminished triad does not. We commonly say "diminished" for diminished 7th chords, but it's not technically correct.

Diminished is a legitimate term for a triad such as B D F. In fact, it's the ONLY correct term for such a triad.

[MalcolmAmos]

What you get from stacking 3rds.

A harmonic minor 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, 7
Note 	Chord 		Spelling	Chord Name	Function
A	A-C-E-G#	1-b3-5-7	A min(maj7) 	i min(maj7)         (tonic)
B	B-D-F-A		1-b3-b5-b7	Bmin7b5		ii min7b5
C	C-E-G#-B	1-3-#5-7	Cmaj7(#5)	bIII maj 7(#5)
D	D-F-A-C		1-b3-5-b7	Dmin 7		iv min7       (subdominant)
E	E-G#-B-D	1-3-5-b7	E7		V7	        (dominant)
F	F-A-C-E		1-3-5-7		Fmaj 7		bVI maj7
G#	G#-B-D-F	1-b3-b5-bb7	G#dim7		vii dim7 (full dim)

[FretlessMainly]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

Actually, not quite true. The OP was perfectly correct.

I take your point, but the OP asked about chords that are diatonic to, as an example later offered, A harmonic minor. I understand that only three pitches are required to form a chord, but I always think of them as being 1 3 5 7. In this case, the full chord based on B would be b d f a (using the formula of alternating each scale degree to form the chord) and that is a min7(b5) chord. One of the peculiarities of the harmonic minor scale is that both the min7(b5) and the dim7 fit; you could play b d f g# as a true diminished chord, but that's 1 3 5 6 based on the second degree of the A harmonic minor scale, so it's not a true chord diatonic to A harmonic minor. To me, b d f is ambiguous as to whether it's a minor7(b5) or a diminished 7th chord, but the chord that fits the formula best is Bmin7(b5).

Further, the real characteristic sound of harmonic minor, the Dom7(b9) is classically substituted by a dim7 chord in jazz (and to sub F dim7 for E7(b9), you really need the pitch that is g#, which just isn't a chord tone for a chord built on the second scale degree), so that's just how my brain approaches it. But again, you are right to indicate that the OP was technically correct in that b d f is a diminished triad.

Sorry if this seems a slightly convoluted point. It's far more clear in my brain that it is in this post.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by FretlessMainly

I take your point, but the OP asked about chords that are diatonic to, as an example later offered, A harmonic minor. I understand that only three pitches are required to form a chord, but I always think of them as being 1 3 5 7. In this case, the full chord based on B would be b d f a (using the formula of alternating each scale degree to form the chord) and that is a min7(b5) chord. One of the peculiarities of the harmonic minor scale is that both the min7(b5) and the dim7 fit; you could play b d f g# as a true diminished chord, but that's 1 3 5 6 based on the second degree of the A harmonic minor scale, so it's not a true chord diatonic to A harmonic minor. To me, b d f is ambiguous as to whether it's a minor7(b5) or a diminished 7th chord, but the chord that fits the formula best is Bmin7(b5).

Further, the real characteristic sound of harmonic minor, the Dom7(b9) is classically substituted by a dim7 chord in jazz (and to sub F dim7 for E7(b9), you really need the pitch that is g#, which just isn't a chord tone for a chord built on the second scale degree), so that's just how my brain approaches it. But again, you are right to indicate that the OP was technically correct in that b d f is a diminished triad.

Sorry if this seems a slightly convoluted point. It's far more clear in my brain that it is in this post.

Absolutely, you're quite right when you take it to 7th chords, but the OP was still on triads, so I thought it was best to stay within the terms of the question. My own bias is that triads are the best place to start. It's how this stuff is traditionally taught in the initial stages, and that still makes sense to me. It seems to be sort of a jazz guy's bias--one that I'm prone to as well, don't get me wrong--to think of everything in terms of 7ths, but there's plenty of music that doesn't use them nearly as much. So my preference is to start with getting a handle on the triads, then build from there.

EDIT: oh yeah, one more thing. In the example above, where you correctly noted that B D F G# works, it's probably best not to think of it as a 1 3 5 6 from B but as the 1st inversion of a G#dim7. This explains the spelling and also gives you a chord that is diatonic in terms of the A harmonic minor scale, thereby helping explain why the chord works.

[over_the_moon]

I was definitely only thinking in triads, but I think you guys have pointed me towards my next step... I'm self-taught, so I tend to wander about in my quest for education.

[FretlessMainly]

Great - sometimes the best way to learn is to ask some questions and start playing around with what you're learning to expand upon it. Regarding triads vs. full chords with 7ths, I always consider the 7th because it's one of the two most important chord tones to the ear, especially in a dominant 7 chord. Consider the simple folk-style progression of the chords G C D. Whether you like it or not, the D chord is really functioning as a D7 chord, whether you play plain D or a D7. If you wrote a simple descending bass line from the D chord back to the G chord, the most common sound to the ear would be d c b a g. The c natural being the indicator that the chord is functioning as a D7 chord.

So, to me, the two most important chord tones to establish movement of a chord are the 3rd and the 7th. I'd call the root the next most important and the 5th least important of the four chord tones for the ear to need to hear to assimilate the music into the familiar western patterns it is used to. In no other chord function are the 3rd and 7th so critical as in the dominant 7 chord. It's because of the alternating half-step motions that make the resolution so satisfying to the ear. Take D7 to GMaj. The F# (the 3rd of D7) resolves up one-half step to the root of G and the C natural (the b7 of the D7 chord) resolves down one-half step to the 3rd of G (a B natural). That is a powerful sound; so much so that next time you have to play a D7 chord, just play F# and C (preferably in the upper range of the bass somewhere). So, don't forget about your 7ths!

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by FretlessMainly

Great - sometimes the best way to learn is to ask some questions and start playing around with what you're learning to expand upon it. Regarding triads vs. full chords with 7ths, I always consider the 7th because it's one of the two most important chord tones to the ear, especially in a dominant 7 chord. Consider the simple folk-style progression of the chords G C D. Whether you like it or not, the D chord is really functioning as a D7 chord, whether you play plain D or a D7. If you wrote a simple descending bass line from the D chord back to the G chord, the most common sound to the ear would be d c b a g. The c natural being the indicator that the chord is functioning as a D7 chord.

So, to me, the two most important chord tones to establish movement of a chord are the 3rd and the 7th. I'd call the root the next most important and the 5th least important of the four chord tones for the ear to need to hear to assimilate the music into the familiar western patterns it is used to. In no other chord function are the 3rd and 7th so critical as in the dominant 7 chord. It's because of the alternating half-step motions that make the resolution so satisfying to the ear. Take D7 to GMaj. The F# (the 3rd of D7) resolves up one-half step to the root of G and the C natural (the b7 of the D7 chord) resolves down one-half step to the 3rd of G (a B natural). That is a powerful sound; so much so that next time you have to play a D7 chord, just play F# and C (preferably in the upper range of the bass somewhere). So, don't forget about your 7ths!

Again, I would respectfully disagree. The root is far more important than the 7th. How do we know this? We know this because (a) root movement is in fact how harmonic motion in a key is described, (b) much music does not make extensive use of 7ths at all, and (c) all the basic functions in conventional harmony can be, and traditionally are, explained fully and completely with triads. I don't know where this idea came from that we need 7ths in a chord to understand what's going on, but we don't. Certainly they're useful in many contexts, but not essential for function. (This may be a jazz thing; some jazz guys are sometimes castigated for throwing in 7ths, 9ths and other notes in chords where they're not wanted. Like playing a maj9 chord for the I in an Irish tune--I have actually heard this, and in that particular context ... ugh.)

It's not a matter of a D functioning as a D7 without the 7th. That's backwards. It's really the other way around: the D7 is essentially functioning as a D, with the added force supplied by the addition of a 7 to the V chord. V expresses the basic function as fully as is required for that function; V7 is just a refinement and strengthening of that basic function. Again, all of the standard harmonic functions work and can be understood in terms of triads; that's why they're taught that way! When you play a D, you're not "really" playing a D7 with an omitted 7 (which wouldn't really make sense if the 7th were actually one of the two most important chord tones--if it were, you couldn't afford to omit it), you're playing a D. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, as Freud supposedly (and perhaps apocryphally) once said.

None of this is to say that knowing what your 7ths would be if you used them is important. But this really comes down to knowing the key or tonality you happen to be in the moment.

Regarding partial chords, sure, chordal instruments often don't play the full chords, as I know from having been a serious guitarist for even longer than I've been a bassist. And certainly you can get a lot of mileage out of playing some simple voicing like F#-C on a guitar, say. But as I know you know, you won't get far as a bassist if you make that kind of thing the basis of your bass lines.

EDIT: It occurs to me that what I said above might sound like a knock on jazz or jazz musicians. It isn't intended that way in the slightest. I'm a jazz musician among other things and have loved that music since I was about 12. All I'm suggesting is that practices that are appropriate for one setting are not necessarily applicable to all.