Did bass players used to tune half a tone lower?

[terribilino]

I'm a noob trying to figure some 60s and 70s bass lines, and I notice they'd be much easier to play half a tone higher. Am I just imagining things?

[onlyclave]

Stop tuning your bass Eb Ab Db Gb. Problem solved.

[rarisgod]

I don't get what you're saying...?

[CatfishStudios]

he is saying he is out of tune

Some older recordings may come out slightly faster or slower than originally played..thus sounding a little sharp or flat...

[terribilino]

I just meant the fingering would be easier - allowing for open strings instead of difficult stretches. I guess I'm just trying to take the wimpy way out. I'll try to come up with an example...

[rarisgod]

Originally Posted by CatfishStudios

he is saying he is out of tune

Some older recordings may come out slightly faster or slower than originally played..thus sounding a little sharp or flat...

That's what I originally thought, because I know that some old songs are slightly out of tune as well (Think Xanadu by Rush or Baba O'Reilly by The Who).
But:

Originally Posted by terribilino

I just meant the fingering would be easier - allowing for open strings instead of difficult stretches. I guess I'm just trying to take the wimpy way out. I'll try to come up with an example...

So that's why I'm not too sure what he means...an example would help greatly!

[Dan1099]

A lot of this is because much music in the 60's and 70's were played with horns, which have a MUCH easier time playing in flat keys... Eb, Bb, etc.

It's much easier to transpose on bass and guitar than on horn, so we got stuck with keys that don't often use open strings. No biggy, I prefer closed notes anyway.

[trevcda]

Not only were some recordings slowed down for effect by physically slowing down the tape which resulted in non standard tunings, but because most keyboards sounds of the time were produced by either the result of stiking of string or tine, the use of a tone wheels or through an analog circuit, all of which need to be tuned often, especially if it was toured with and subject to temperature extremes, it was often easier to tune four or six strings to the keyboard rather than retuning up to 88 or more stings on the keyboard.

Sorry for the long assed sentence, but you get the idea...

[olemah]

Originally Posted by Dan1099

A lot of this is because much music in the 60's and 70's were played with horns, which have a MUCH easier time playing in flat keys... Eb, Bb, etc.

It's much easier to transpose on bass and guitar than on horn, so we got stuck with keys that don't often use open strings. No biggy, I prefer closed notes anyway.

Yup, that could be it. Try playing with a big band. All flat keys, all the time.
If I'm not mistaken(I'm a horn player too), flat keys are not only easier to play, but sharp keys tend to sound just a little but off-pitch....depending on the skill level of the player of course....

[Ric5]

Old Rolling Stones recordings are tuned slightly off A 440. Less than tuning to e flat.

[Dan1099]

Originally Posted by olemah

Yup, that could be it. Try playing with a big band. All flat keys, all the time.
If I'm not mistaken(I'm a horn player too), flat keys are not only easier to play, but sharp keys tend to sound just a little but off-pitch....depending on the skill level of the player of course....

Indeed. Certain sharp keys sounds pretty awkward on a trumpet.

[mwiles30]

Some people tuned down, others didn't. Do what you need to do.

[Dave Muscato]

Originally Posted by Dan1099

A lot of this is because much music in the 60's and 70's were played with horns, which have a MUCH easier time playing in flat keys... Eb, Bb, etc.

It's much easier to transpose on bass and guitar than on horn, so we got stuck with keys that don't often use open strings. No biggy, I prefer closed notes anyway.

That was my first thought, too. I also prefer playing fretted notes to open strings, when I have a choice (which is part of the reason I play five- and six-string basses). You have a lot more control over vibrato, glissando, muting, note duration, etc with fretted notes.

[copreus]

I was told that it was not unusual for adjustments to be made to the speed of recordings for a certain effect -- be it slower or faster -- back then. Also I am told that some guitar players liked loose strings (detuned flat) because it made the strings easier to make extreme bends -- Hendrix, the Stones (as noted) and Black Sabbath for example. Some, like Chuck Berry, figured that since he was the star, everybody tuned to him. Flat guitarist = flat bassist. Also I would imagine the priority was that the band be in tune with itself and not necessarily in A440 back in those days before electronic tuners.
None of the "off-key" situations are consistent -- not even a full semi-tone in cases --- and this makes it annoying when you're practicing a song to cover it in a certain key. The easiest (not cheapest) way to deal with it is to use a practice playback unit that allows you to change the speed of what you're playing against. I know the Pandora and I think Tascam have practice units with this feature. Check around online for practice/effects units to see what's available and affordable. It's easier to change the speed on the unit by partial degrees and than to retune your bass every time you want to practice one of these great songs.
As far as the bassist being able to use the open strings, the song has to be in a key that the vocalist is comfortable with. The vocals take priority above all else. At least every vocalist I've talked to has thought so. The ease to play the song on the lead instrument is the next consideration. The rhythm section is the last consideration when it comes to the key of a song. Yes, you should learn how to move your patterns up and down the neck.
Have fun!

[terribilino]

Lots to chew on. That's why forums are fun - you pick up a lot of neat trivia.

Just to check, then: what do you hear as the first note in Bootsy's bass line for Super Bad?

Thanks!

[E2daGGurl]

No, I think not. However, certain common recording techniques back then changed pitch systematically.

Sharp keys sounding awkward on trumpet? I find that an odd thing to say.

However, thinking about the typical trumpet player playing anything in F# or C# is somewhat mindblowing.

[Fergie Fulton]

Back in the days when i used to have to tune my record player with a small threaded screw that controlled the speed so the pitch i found a lot of the time that American recordings were a
semi- tone lower than British recordings when it was set correct.

I was told that this was because in America the Pitch of Middle C was a semi-tone lower than in the UK. Whether that was true i don't know, but there was a definite semi-tone difference in the recordings back in the 60s and 70s.

[bassmodder]

Go give Acoustica's Mix craft a try. Lets you change keys and semitones without changing speeds or vice verse. Works for me. Then save it as MP3 and burn it for the band so they can practice it. (You can use a digital tuner to pick certain notes and adjust the pitch accordingly)

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by Fergie Fulton

I was told that this was because in America the Pitch of Middle C was a semi-tone lower than in the UK. Whether that was true i don't know, but there was a definite semi-tone difference in the recordings back in the 60s and 70s.

Yep, in America we tune middle C a semi-tone lower, but the rest of the scale is tuned to the A 440 standard.

Think about how records were made back in the 60s: Singles were cut mostly, not entire albums. Who's to say that the tape machines were calibrated correctly or (more likely) the vinyl master cutting lathes were out of whack? The only purpose was to cut a single as fast as possible and press and sell as many as they could.

I don't think absolute pitch accuracy was really a big deal then either since those songs had all of their parts played live. For a single in a jukebox, school dance or radio station, who really cared?

[olemah]

Originally Posted by E2daGGurl

Sharp keys sounding awkward on trumpet? I find that an odd thing to say.

Why is that such an odd thing to say?
A trumpet is not necessarily a well-tempered instrument(as in wohltemperierte klavier), and certain notes are harder to play in tune than others...will try to explain more later.....need sleep now..