Difference between 3 and 5?

oniman7 · #1 03-01-2011, 04:02 PM

I was just curious what's the difference between two hypothetical pieces, both one measure long.

Piece one is 80 BPM, using eighth notes in 3/4 time
1 + 2 + 3

Piece two is 160 BPM, using quarter notes in 5/4 time
1 2 3 4 5

Both should be the same number of notes in the same timing, with the same distance between them... right?

So, would you use either one of them as it fit the rest of the piece? For example, you would use 80 BPM (3/4) if the song was a little slower, or 160 BPM (5/4) if the song was faster?

TylerEmond · #2 03-01-2011, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oniman7

I was just curious what's the difference between two hypothetical pieces, both one measure long.

Piece one is 80 BPM, using eighth notes in 3/4 time
1 + 2 + 3

Piece two is 160 BPM, using quarter notes in 5/4 time
1 2 3 4 5

Both should be the same number of notes in the same timing, with the same distance between them... right?

So, would you use either one of them as it fit the rest of the piece? For example, you would use 80 BPM (3/4) if the song was a little slower, or 160 BPM (5/4) if the song was faster?

You're missing the last eighth note

1 + 2 + 3 + <-----

So, it's actually 6 eighth notes, and would not equal 5 double time quarter notes.

M0ses · #3 03-01-2011, 04:14 PM

No.
No matter the time difference, you can't put 3 into 5 or vice versa unless you make it 15. BPM is unrelated to the time signature.

oniman7 · #4 03-01-2011, 09:14 PM

So, if I exclude the and of 3, does that not make it 3/4? I assume, then, that it would have to be 5/8? Would an eighth note rest at the end make it 3/4?

Assuming that an eighth note rest at the end makes it 3/4, then would the hypothetical pieces not be played almost identical, since the rest wouldn't really change much?

I'm just curious about this from a semantic standpoint.

**Pacman** · #5 03-01-2011, 10:05 PM

a bar of 5/8 time has 5 8th notes
a bar of 3/4 time has 6 8th notes

huge difference.

JimmyM · #6 03-02-2011, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oniman7

So, if I exclude the and of 3, does that not make it 3/4? I assume, then, that it would have to be 5/8? Would an eighth note rest at the end make it 3/4?

Assuming that an eighth note rest at the end makes it 3/4, then would the hypothetical pieces not be played almost identical, since the rest wouldn't really change much?

I'm just curious about this from a semantic standpoint.

it's not semantics. it's specific and clear. you're confusing fractions with music. you're trying to get a lowest common denominator thing going between the two, but you should be treating them as two different musical concepts. 5/8 and 3/4 bear no resemblance to each other when it comes to applying them to music. so forget math or interrelationships and concentrate on how to count them musically.

EpiRipper · #7 03-02-2011, 02:40 AM

2

**bassybill** · #8 03-02-2011, 06:00 AM

http://www.rinki.net/pekka/monkey/

Use "import from text" and copy and paste from these two attached files. Then listen (and count).

Febs · #9 03-02-2011, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oniman7

Assuming that an eighth note rest at the end makes it 3/4, then would the hypothetical pieces not be played almost identical, since the rest wouldn't really change much?

Almost identical?! The rest wouldn't really change much?!

If you leave out an eighth rest from each measure of 3/4, but the end of the second measure, you'll be a full beat ahead. By the end of the sixth measure, you'll be a full measure ahead. By the end of the song, you'll be fired.

JTE · #10 03-02-2011, 08:13 AM

Do you even know what the time signature means? Top number is the number of beats per measure, bottom one tells you which note gets one beat. So, 3/4 means three beats per measure, and 5/4 means five beats. No matter how you divide up the beats, one is still going to be 2 beats fewer than the other. Tempo is a whole other parameter.

John

mambo4 · #11 03-02-2011, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oniman7

would the hypothetical pieces not be played almost identical, since the rest wouldn't really change much?

your mistaken thinking bolded. Time signatures "include" the rests, removing them changes everything. If you try to play 3/4 eights notes, and drop the last rest....it's no longer 3/4

time and rhythm are often more about the silence ( rests) than anything else.

countrybassist · #12 03-02-2011, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTE

Do you even know what the time signature means? bottom one tells you which note gets one beat.
John

Obviously, you don't understand either

The top is the number of beats/measure. The bottom is the type of note. ei) bottom number
1= whole note
2= half note
4= quarter note
8= eighth note
16= sixteenth note

JimmyM · #13 03-02-2011, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by countrybassist

Obviously, you don't understand either

The top is the number of beats/measure. The bottom is the type of note. ei) bottom number
1= whole note
2= half note
4= quarter note
8= eighth note
16= sixteenth note

actually i think that's what he was saying, albeit the wording could have been better

JTE · #14 03-02-2011, 03:34 PM

Actually that was a direct quote I recall from one of my first piano books, back in the olden days...

Bottom number tells you which note gets a beat. 4 is a quarter (as in 1/4), 2 is half (1/2), 8 is eighth (1/8), 16 is sixteenth (1/16)

John

oniman7 · #15 03-02-2011, 04:49 PM

Everybody jump on the dumb guy...

I understand (since it was corrected originally) that it would change the rest of the composition a lot.

What I meant is if the songs were just one measure, with the rest at the end, 3/4 would be 1 + 2 + 3 R (rest) while while 5/8 would be 1 + 2 + 3

For this one measure only, wouldn't it be the same?

Bassybill, I'd love to hear your files, but my browser doesn't have an import from text option, and it only opened up an HTML page :/

JimmyM · #16 03-02-2011, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oniman7

Everybody jump on the dumb guy...

welcome to talkbass

Quote:

I understand (since it was corrected originally) that it would change the rest of the composition a lot.

What I meant is if the songs were just one measure, with the rest at the end, 3/4 would be 1 + 2 + 3 R (rest) while while 5/8 would be 1 + 2 + 3

For this one measure only, wouldn't it be the same?

nope, not the same. when you have a rest, you don't just skip that beat...you have silence but that part of the beat is still there and needs to be counted. so it would still be 1 + 2 + 3 +, it's just that you wouldn't play anything over that last + .

**bassybill** · #17 03-02-2011, 05:30 PM

I really think people are just trying be helpful.

Go to the link I posted and open the drum machine. In that window, click on the file menu and the "import from text" option to copy and paste from the files I posted. You will need Java installed on your machine but most computers already have this.

Forget about songs being one measure long - they still all have a basic pulse and the two cases you're talking about are very different in this regard. Try tapping your foot at a medium speed. For every tap (don't skip a single one), count as follows, REALLY emphasising the "1".

1 & 2 & 3 & 1& 2 & 3 & 1 & 2 & 3 &....

Now try this - much harder as it's not a very natural rhythm at all

1 & 2 & 3 1 & 2 & 3 1 & 2 & 3 1 & 2...

There's a huge difference between a 3 beat / 6 half beats in a bar feel and a 5 in the bar feel.

If you're still not getting it, just try this, tapping your foot every time you say "1".

1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 1 2 3 4 5 6

1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5 1 2 3 4 5

Get what we mean now? The basic pulse is different, whether there's notes played or not (including a silence at the end of a bar).

**bassybill** · #18 03-02-2011, 05:35 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sU4mgkGtrs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWGeRgFa-hI

If you still can't hear it, just relax and enjoy the music.

oniman7 · #19 03-02-2011, 05:43 PM

Alright, that makes a lot more sense now. I'll listen to the links in a little bit. Thanks, everybody.

**Pacman** · #20 03-02-2011, 06:23 PM

Actually though, we're all missing one important condition of this question: the hypothetical pieces are only one bar long. I missed that the first read through, and that makes a difference. The answer, in this case, is: it depends. Metrical stress plays a big part of time signatures (the reason 6/8 and 3/4 sound differently, for instance), so depending on the accents and metrical stress of the two hypothetical pieces, it's possible for those two pieces to sound identical.