Difference between Persian and Minor

[yocher]

i was using studybass.com to go over/learn scales. I practiced the natural minor scales on this site. Then a friend suggested I get the "bass grimoire" The book does not have a section for natural minor. Harmonic, Melodic and some others are there, but not natural. Mode VI of the Persian scale in the book matches the natural minor scales on the studybass website.


can anybody elaborate on this?

thanks, karl

[TOOL460002]

i have a decent grasp on theory, but can you please post an example?

i thought a natural harmonic scale was just the phrygian, aeolian, or locrian scales.

i dont think this is a huge derailment... but, is it stupid to judge scales by the number of tritones they have? i mean, pentatonics have zero, the "normal" western ones have one, minor harmonic scales have two, and diminished scales have three.

thanks again, and sorry if i derailed your thread at all.

[yocher]

If I find a good example I'll post it, I do see that the Aeolian mode of the major scale also matches the fingering pattern that I think is a natural minor. I think I'm chasing my tail here......
the other modes you mentioned have different notes sharped or flatted...

[funkydanbass]

The Aeolian mode is the Natural Minor Scale. Exact same thing.

1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

I've never heard of teh persian scale before...

[Jim Carr]

Originally Posted by yocher

i was using studybass.com to go over/learn scales. I practiced the natural minor scales on this site. Then a friend suggested I get the "bass grimoire" The book does not have a section for natural minor. Harmonic, Melodic and some others are there, but not natural. Mode VI of the Persian scale in the book matches the natural minor scales on the studybass website.


can anybody elaborate on this?

thanks, karl

Karl, somewhere you have become confused.

C Db E F Gb Ab B C = C persian

Ab B C Db E F Gb Ab = VI mode of C persian (on Ab)

Ab Bb Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab = ab natural minor

The VIth mode of the persian scale is NOT a natural minor scale. I'd call it the VIth mode of persian. However, the VIth mode of major is natural minor. Think of it this way:

C D E F G A B C = C major

A B C D E F G A = a natural minor

The natural minor is the "VIth mode" of major, and just as major is ionian, so is natural minor aeolian, in the current naming system of the so-called greek modes.

IMHO, knowing all the major scales, their natural, harmonic, and melodic minors, as well as all the key signatures and spellings for them is WAY more important than worrying about the VIth mode of persian, all IMHO.

[WarriorJoe7]

Jim has it all correct. To reinforce:

The greeks called is aeolian. We call it natural minor. 2 names for the same thing.

The greeks called it Ionian. We call it major.

As far as the other 5 modes we do not call them anything special. So they retain their greek names. All 7 of those modes are based on the same pattern with a different starting point. The VI mode of any major scale is always the natural minor of that 6th note.

i.e. C major C D E F G A B C

A is the 6th note... so if you take that as the starting point with the same notes

A B C D E F G A

then you have A natural minor.

The 6th mode of any major (ionian) scale is always natural minor (aeolian)

The 3rd mode of any natural minor (aeolian) scale is always major (ionian)

thus

Ab Bb Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab = Ab natural minor with the 3rd in bold

Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Ab Bb = Cb major (notice the 6th note is Ab... it's circular)

and so forth

[yocher]

Thanks guys,


VI mode of major (aeolian) = natural minor....got it.

I did read the VIth mode of Perisan wrong, mia culpa

[Jim Carr]

No problem. now...

Your assignment for next week is to name all the modes of Persian, in Farsi. N.B., they probably already have Farsi names, so locating those would work, i.e., you don't have to make them up if they exist.

[HaVIC5]

i dont think this is a huge derailment... but, is it stupid to judge scales by the number of tritones they have? i mean, pentatonics have zero, the "normal" western ones have one, minor harmonic scales have two, and diminished scales have three.

Fascinating that you brought this up, I don't know where else it may be mentioned, but I'm working on a personal compositional theory that organized scales with this as a main topic of interest. As far as andihemitonic heptatonics go (7-note scales without consecutive half-steps), there are only 6 such scales, and 4 "real" ones (two are just the octatonic scale minus one note) Everything else are just modes of these four basic ones. The major scale is the only one with one tritone, then you have the melodic minor, harmonic minor and harmonic major (ionian b6) all with two tritones. The two heptatonic diminished scales all have three.

If you look at standard modal theory on the greek modes, you find that every mode has a "characteristic" pitch, that is essential to creating the sound of the mode that isn't the third (major/minor). Dorian's for example is natural 6, Phrygian's is b2, etc. In every case the characteristic pitch lies on the diatonic tritone to that system. The more tritones you have, the more characteristic pitches there are. For example, the second mode of harmonic major is Dorian b5, and the characteristic pitches are b5 AND natural 6, one for each tritone in the system.

Sorry for this tangent. Continue the discussion as normal.