Difference between slash chords and figured bass notation

[osciphex]

A friend of mine is taking a piano course and I noticed that in some of her music there was a special notation for chord inversions (which I saw on wikipedia was called "figured bass notation") that I wasn't familiar with.

So, take two chords, a slash chord, C/E and a chord with the little figured numbers - E⁶₃

It is my understanding that these two chords are harmonically equivalent, but that the notation means something a little different:

"C/E" means "play a C major triad in any inversion/order you wish, but make sure there is an E in the bass"

While "E⁶₃" means "play only the following notes for a C major triad in first inversion: E, G, C, in that ascending order."

Am I correct?

[DocBop]

What century is it? The only time I've seen figured bass was in traditional harmony text books and for historic reasons.

[jady]

Originally Posted by osciphex

A friend of mine is taking a piano course and I noticed that in some of her music there was a special notation for chord inversions (which I saw on wikipedia was called "figured bass notation") that I wasn't familiar with.

So, take two chords, a slash chord, C/E and a chord with the little figured numbers - E⁶₃

It is my understanding that these two chords are harmonically equivalent, but that the notation means something a little different:

"C/E" means "play a C major triad in any inversion/order you wish, but make sure there is an E in the bass"

While "E⁶₃" means "play only the following notes for a C major triad in first inversion: E, G, C, in that ascending order."

Am I correct?

thy be correct young master, now go and give alms to thine peasants or faceth thee the wrath of unruly subjects.............

[jperalta]

Actually, that's incorrect. C/E and E ⁶₍₃₎ are two different chords.

C/E is a C major chord with E in the bass (rest of notes in no particular order).

E ⁶₍₃₎ is an E major chord with the B is the bass. It implies a 3rd between the bass note and next note and a 6th between the bass note and the highest note (i.e. G# B E ordering). However, the interesting point is that this is not a required voicing. You could voice that chord G# E B if you wanted, as long as the G# is in the bass.

Thus the equivalent of C/E is a C ⁶₍₃₎ chord. The two notations are exactly equivalent in that neither specifies voicing of the upper voices only which note belongs in the bass. The named note in the notation is the root of the chord, not the name of the note in the bass.

[BassChuck]

IMHO.

These are two different systems for shorthand notation of harmony. Mixing parts of both of them will result in nothing but confusion.

In the figured bass system the numbers (in the case sited here 6 and 3) involve playing notes that are a sixth and a third above the note in the bass. This does result in a first inversion chord, something that can also be notated with a slash.

Modern chord notation, takes care of just about anything you need to express harmony in shorthand. It doesn't do too well expressing the function of the chord within the key (is a C/E chord a tonic or subdominat?) but that little piece of information is rarely needed for performance, its more of an analysis thing. Figured bass works well for analyising classical and pre-classical music... it begins to break down in mid to late 20th century music.

[osciphex]

Originally Posted by jperalta

Actually, that's incorrect. C/E and E ⁶₍₃₎ are two different chords.

C/E is a C major chord with E in the bass (rest of notes in no particular order).

E ⁶₍₃₎ is an E major chord with the B is the bass. It implies a 3rd between the bass note and next note and a 6th between the bass note and the highest note (i.e. G# B E ordering). However, the interesting point is that this is not a required voicing. You could voice that chord G# E B if you wanted, as long as the G# is in the bass.

Thus the equivalent of C/E is a C ⁶₍₃₎ chord. The two notations are exactly equivalent in that neither specifies voicing of the upper voices only which note belongs in the bass. The named note in the notation is the root of the chord, not the name of the note in the bass.

Hmm, this conflicts with the Wikipedia article "Inversion (music)" that I learned about these from.

It says:
"C 5 3, which is a root position C major triad (given a key signature that does not alter E or G), as G and E are a fifth and third above this note. Its first inversion would be notated E 6, which stands for E 6 3, giving E G and C. Its second inversion is G 6 4."

The wikipedia is wrong?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inversion_%28music%29

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by osciphex

Hmm, this conflicts with the Wikipedia article "Inversion (music)" that I learned about these from.

It says:
"C 5 3, which is a root position C major triad (given a key signature that does not alter E or G), as G and E are a fifth and third above this note. Its first inversion would be notated E 6, which stands for E 6 3, giving E G and C. Its second inversion is G 6 4."

The wikipedia is wrong?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inversion_%28music%29

Perfect example of why I'm glad Figured bass is something for text books and slash chords are for real world charts. I've been playing a LONG time as guitarist and bassist. I have never seen Figured bass in real world work. I see a slash chords, polychords (not too much anymore) or if arranger wants a specific voicing they will write it in standard notation.

I would rather see a chord in standard notation than Figured bass. With standard I know exactly what they want and can give them as much as I can depend on how much time I have to review the chart before playing or tempo of tune.

[jperalta]

Yes, wikipedia is wrong. First of all, the actual chord name is not part of figured bass notation. The actual notation is a bass line with written notes and then the figured bass numbers below it. However, if you did actually name a note you would name the root and not the bass note.

Edit: Actually, wikipedia isn't really wrong it just does a terrible job of explaining what it means. When it says "It's first inversion would be notated E 6" they mean that an 'E' would be written in the bass clef and a 6 would be notated below it which is correct. That is the normal way you will see figured bass notated. If you do see a reference to the chord's name the wikipedia article shows below the normal way it is written. The chord's diatonic chord number is given along with the inversion figures.

[osciphex]

By the way, the textbook in question with the figured bass stuff is "Contemporary Class Piano" by Elyse Mach. I'm surprised something supposedly outdated like this is in such a popular book. It doesn't really explain it very well though...

[motorcityska]

It seems odd that it would be in a "contemporary" piano book. Figured bass is still used in some orchestral settings though. There are parts of some pieces where the pianist or harpsichordist is given the melody and figured bass symbols--kind of a Baroque era chord chart.

[Scourge441]

Originally Posted by DocBop

I would rather see a chord in standard notation than Figured bass. With standard I know exactly what they want and can give them as much as I can depend on how much time I have to review the chart before playing or tempo of tune.

From what I can gather from my music theory class, figured bass is used mostly by classical piano/organ players.

[PocketGroove82]

Originally Posted by DocBop

What century is it? The only time I've seen figured bass was in traditional harmony text books and for historic reasons.

Hey DocBop, I used to think you were cool but now that I know you can't lay down a phat and funky cantus firmus just by sight-reading figured bass...well I must say, you sir, have lost points.

The next time I need someone to sit in for me on violon de gamba...I won't be calling you.

[onlyclave]

Actually he should be able to lay down the cantus firmus just fine sight reading it since that part will be written in standard notation. Figured bass shows what the lowest note in the chord voicing is and the numbers and slashes below show the inversions of the harmony. Now if he was playing basso continuo (the harpsichord part) and couldn't read it then he wouldn't have a job for long. Figured bass is just a lead sheet for the harpsichord player and it allows for some improvisation which is allowed within the Baroque period.

I don't want to play with many viola da gamba players because they are the original frustrated guitar players, what with their 6 strings and frets. Sheesh. Give me the original Baroque contrabass with 3 strings.

/music history geekery

[Kobaia]

ok whats figured bass for C/D.

its a D9sus4 omit5

[Stumpy]

Originally Posted by osciphex

Hmm, this conflicts with the Wikipedia article "Inversion (music)" that I learned about these from.

It says:
"C 5 3, which is a root position C major triad (given a key signature that does not alter E or G), as G and E are a fifth and third above this note. Its first inversion would be notated E 6, which stands for E 6 3, giving E G and C. Its second inversion is G 6 4."

The wikipedia is wrong?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inversion_%28music%29

C (5,3) means root position of a CMaj triad (C, E, G). C(6,3) means 1st inversion of a CMaj triad (G, C, E). C(6,4) means 2nd inversion of a CMaj triad (E,G,C).

Notes from before are indeed a 6th above the bass (lowest note) and a 3rd above the bass (lowest note). In the case of C (6,3) it is knowing that the chord is a C Major chord and that you need to have C, E, and G in it. Therefore you need to put the G as the lowest note followed by the others. In the first year of theory classes in college (some high schools) you learn that the firs and second inversions are just as described above and how they function in particular pieces so that you can recreate and/or use to create new pieces in that particular genre.

In your example above...E6 is an EMaj6 chord or E Maj add 6 or if you flip the 6th over it becomes the root of the C Aug 7 chord. To get what you are looking for you simply need to keep the chord true (don't change the name but just the inversion) to what was written ...

C (6,3) = C/E (or just C6 in classical terms, not jazz or modern notation terms)

hope this clears things up a bit and not mudying it up a great deal more

[Stumpy]

Originally Posted by Kobaia

ok whats figured bass for C/D.

its a D9sus4 omit5

It could be Dmin11...or maybe a C9 or CMaj add2 sorry...figured bass...not alternatives...

[Stumpy]

Originally Posted by osciphex

By the way, the textbook in question with the figured bass stuff is "Contemporary Class Piano" by Elyse Mach. I'm surprised something supposedly outdated like this is in such a popular book. It doesn't really explain it very well though...

Composers / arrangers use it quite a bit. As do the players that live (performance speaking) in that century. I know some woodwind quintets that read that kind of literature daily.



regardless...

knowing that in a 6,3 chord the third of the chord is in the bass (lowest note) and in a 6,4 chord the fifth of the chord is in the bass helps. Just like the C/E

What about the C2/E chords?

[onlyclave]

C2/E doesn't look like any chord, especially taken out of context where you can't see what the function is. The symbol "C2/E" is a bastardization of 2 different ways harmonic analysis is written. "V 2" would be a dominant function chord (the V) in third inversion and that's really the only time you will see a symbol like "X 2". In figured bass if there was an "E" written in the bass clef with a 2 underneath then the continuo player would play F#7 in third inversion, which in C major is the V7/vii, a subdominant function chord resolving to vii so the next chord would have a D in the bass since vii is most commonly used in first inversion.

Spelling the chord out verbatim as the symbol indicates (E, G, C, D) could be a C add 9 but not a Csus2 without seeing it in context. It's very possible that the E in the bass is a pedal point with a G major in the top voices and the C is just a passing tone.

C2/E is just too ambiguous to mean anything,

[hunta]

Figured bass, one of those things they spend way too much time on in music theory classes and which 99% of musicians will never ever use again.

[Stumpy]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

C2/E doesn't look like any chord, especially taken out of context where you can't see what the function is. The symbol "C2/E" is a bastardization of 2 different ways harmonic analysis is written. "V 2" would be a dominant function chord (the V) in third inversion and that's really the only time you will see a symbol like "X 2". In figured bass if there was an "E" written in the bass clef with a 2 underneath then the continuo player would play F#7 in third inversion, which in C major is the V7/vii, a subdominant function chord resolving to vii so the next chord would have a D in the bass since vii is most commonly used in first inversion.

Spelling the chord out verbatim as the symbol indicates (E, G, C, D) could be a C add 9 but not a Csus2 without seeing it in context. It's very possible that the E in the bass is a pedal point with a G major in the top voices and the C is just a passing tone.

C2/E is just too ambiguous to mean anything,

I had the same exact response in my jazz theory class. But I assure you that C2/E is a valid chord structure. C,D,G,Bb/E is how it works.

Just gumming up the works here ... sorry