Diminished chords

btrag · #1 09-25-2006, 11:37 AM

Two questions regarding diminished chords:

I'm getting into songwriting, and have learned that the "two" chord in a minor key is diminished, and the "seventh" chord in a major key is dim. How often are these chords featured in pop music?

Should I use the flatted fifth when playing basslines over these diminished chords? Currently, I only use the flatted fifth to slide-into the perfect fifth. For example, playing G, then sliding from C# into D. Hope all of this is clear....

MonetBass · #2 09-25-2006, 12:02 PM

In short, yes. For example, if you're in the key of a minor, the ii is B-D-F and the vii is G#-B-D. So your 'flatted 5th' is actually the dimished 5th.

**Pacman** · #3 09-25-2006, 12:07 PM

Actually, they both are half-diminished. To be fully diminished, the chord needs a double-flatted 7th. In C, it would be B-D-F-Ab, which is not diatonic.

MonetBass · #4 09-25-2006, 12:11 PM

After I posted, I looked at it again and thought, "That's not right." He wasn't talking about 7th chords, was he? You are absolutely correct, Pacman. Edited original post.

steveb98 · #5 09-25-2006, 12:26 PM

True diminish is 1, b3, b5, bb7 so yes you would want to play the flat 5th in the bass line. If you look at lead sheets especailly older ones the diminished chord were usually a chord subsitution. They figured the typical player knew how to play a dim chord, but not a 7b9 which they are a sub for. They used as passing chord ala Freddie Green style guitar playing.

The ii chord in Minor is a half-diminished 1, 3, b5, 7. It is typically followed by an altered dominant. ii-V7 alt.

I would say playing the b5 just as a approach note to the 5 on a m7-5 is bad. If you don't like the sound of the b5 on a chord with a b5 I'd say avoid it in your bass line just play 1, b3, 7.

btrag · #6 09-25-2006, 12:51 PM

I noticed you listed G# as the seventh chord in A minor.....isn't it G?

Also, since Pac-man notes that fully diminished chords have an atonal quality to them. Can I assume that these are used seldom in pop music, and half-diminished is used more often?

I've been doing research, and have learned that the half-diminished is similar to the dominant fifth chord. Very interesting.

MonetBass · #7 09-25-2006, 01:14 PM

I was assuming a harmonic or melodic minor was being used as opposed to the natural minor (where the 7 would be G).
Harmonic = raised 7th (to G# in my example)
Melodic = raised 6th and 7th going up (F# and G#), not raised going down (G and F).
Confused yet? Pick up a good college-level theory text and read the chapters on triads -- that should help.

steveb98 · #8 09-25-2006, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by btrag

I've been doing research, and have learned that the half-diminished is similar to the dominant fifth chord. Very interesting.

Take a Bb diminished chord Bb, Db, E, G and add a C bass. You have C7-9. Then to push things a little... Since any note of a diminished chord can be its root. You could play C7-9, Eb7-9, F#7-9, or A7-9 insteal of Bb diminished.

You can do some really cool sounds with symmetric scales and chords derived from them. Check out John Scofield he uses diminished a lot.

jzucker · #9 09-25-2006, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OKStateBass66

I was assuming a harmonic or melodic minor was being used as opposed to the natural minor (where the 7 would be G).
Harmonic = raised 7th (to G# in my example)
Melodic = raised 6th and 7th going up (F# and G#), not raised going down (G and F).
Confused yet? Pick up a good college-level theory text and read the chapters on triads -- that should help.

In jazz or pop music, the melodic minor is almost never altered in the descending version ala your example.

College level theory book won't help for this stuff. Pick up Mark Levin's jazz theory book and don't use message boards for playing advice!

jzucker · #10 09-25-2006, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveb98

Take a Bb diminished chord Bb, Db, E, G and add a C bass. You have C7-9.

The better approach to look at a diminished chord is that it's a 7-b chord with the b9 in the bass. This makes it more convenient to see a Bbdim7 chord as an A7b9 chord. Your other statements about the inversions are still true. Here's another way to look at that information:

Dodecaphonics

Richard Lindsey · #11 09-25-2006, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacman

Actually, they both are half-diminished. To be fully diminished, the chord needs a double-flatted 7th. In C, it would be B-D-F-Ab, which is not diatonic.

True, but only if you're assuming 7th chords. If you're just thinking triads, B-D-F is of course a diminished triad.

jzucker · #12 09-25-2006, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

True, but only if you're assuming 7th chords. If you're just thinking triads, B-D-F is of course a diminished triad.

No, that's incorrect. Whether you're thinking triads or not, the ii chord in a minor key is a half diminished, not a fully diminished chord. Just because you don't play it or don't think it doesn't diminish (pun intended) the diatonic application of chord tones.

Richard Lindsey · #13 09-25-2006, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jzucker

The better approach to look at a diminished chord is that it's a 7-b chord with the b9 in the bass.

I wouldn't say that's always true. For example, if you have the progression Fmaj7-F#dim7-Gm7, it would make at least as much sense to think of the F#dim7 as a D7b9 with the 3rd in the bass.

Richard Lindsey · #14 09-25-2006, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jzucker

No, that's incorrect. Whether you're thinking triads or not, the ii chord in a minor key is a half diminished, not a fully diminished chord. Just because you don't play it or don't think it doesn't diminish (pun intended) the diatonic application of chord tones.

No, B-D-F is in fact a diminished triad, by definition. That's not arguable. Besides, B-D-F-Ab is technically a diminished 7th chord, even though we all call it a diminished.

Really, though, my point was simply that not everybody may be answering the same question. The answer to "What's the triad built on the 2nd degree?" is not the same as the answer to "What's the 7th chord built on the 2nd degree?" And neither one is the same as the answer to "What mode/scale do you play over the ii chord?" or "Which minor are we talking about, anyway?"

Did any of us answer the OP's original question?

jzucker · #15 09-25-2006, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

I wouldn't say that's always true. For example, if you have the progression Fmaj7-F#dim7-Gm7, it would make at least as much sense to think of the F#dim7 as a D7b9 with the 3rd in the bass.

I didn't say that was always the function. I said that was the better way (more common) way to look at it.

Particularly because it's easy to see that Bb Db(C#) E G is an A7 chord if you lower the Bb to A.

jzucker · #16 09-25-2006, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

No, B-D-F is in fact a diminished triad, by definition. That's not arguable. Besides, B-D-F-Ab is technically a diminished 7th chord, even though we all call it a diminished.

I never said otherwise. Quit taking my postings out of context. What I said was that the ii chord in a minor key is half diminished. Whether you are thinking of a triad or not is irrelevant.

steveb98 · #17 09-25-2006, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

I wouldn't say that's always true. For example, if you have the progression Fmaj7-F#dim7-Gm7, it would make at least as much sense to think of the F#dim7 as a D7b9 with the 3rd in the bass.

There is a lot of ways of looking at things. I say use what is easiest for a person use remember/use. Like your explaination to ME your looking at the F#dim7 as a V of II. That to me would be a good use for soloing. If I was walking bass I might leave the F#dim7 alone treating it like a passing chord ala Freddie Greene, Basie's great guitarist did a lot.

Lots of ways to look at the same thing.

Richard Lindsey · #18 09-25-2006, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jzucker

I never said otherwise. Quit taking my postings out of context. What I said was that the ii chord in a minor key is half diminished. Whether you are thinking of a triad or not is irrelevant.

It's entirely relevant. If, for instance, someone's a folkie, it may mean nothing to say that the I in C major, for example, is a major 7. He may never have even seen or played a major 7. It is no more inherently valid to say that the I is a C major 7 than to say it's simply a C major. Similarly, it is no more inherently valid to say the vii of C major is a half-diminished 7 than to say it is a diminished triad, or to say that the ii in A minor is a m7b5 (half-diminished) rather than a B dim triad.

A ii chord in a minor key is only a half-diminished if you think a chord has to be, or include, a 7.

I'm not taking your posts out of context. I'm taking you at your word.

Richard Lindsey · #19 09-25-2006, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jzucker

I didn't say that was always the function. I said that was the better way (more common) way to look at it.

Particularly because it's easy to see that Bb Db(C#) E G is an A7 chord if you lower the Bb to A.

Naturally you're right about the closeness of Bbdim7 to A7. All I'm saying is that's not necessarily "the better" way of looking at a Bbdim7 chord, as opposed to looking at it as, say, Gb7b9/Bb, C7b9/Bb, or Eb7b9/Bb, depending on context.

jzucker · #20 09-25-2006, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

Naturally you're right about the closeness of Bbdim7 to A7. All I'm saying is that's not necessarily "the better" way of looking at a Bbdim7 chord, as opposed to looking at it as, say, Gb7b9/Bb, C7b9/Bb, or Eb7b9/Bb, depending on context.

Do you just like arguing?