diminished scale refresher!

[sammyp]

Hey guys, my music degree has serious dust on it and i only play rock, blues and country mostly.

I can't remember how many different typed of diminished scales there are! I know half/whole and the reverse whole/half ...

i remember you can use a half/whole on a dominant chord for an altered sound....that's about all i remember!

also, wouldn't the truest diminished scale be the 7th mode of the harmonic minor as the harmonized harm minor results in a dim 7?

if so, why is this dim scale less talked about?

Thanks!

[thumpybones]

Hey Sammy P, There are only two diminished scales, the ones you mention, half-whole and whole-half. The 7th mode of a harmonic minor (B, C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, B) would not be a diminished scale. I hope this helps.

[sammyp]

well ...ok you've sent me back to my guitar and harmonization of the harmonic minor and i would differ ....i dare say the 7th mode of the harmonic minor is THE diminished scale. why do you say otherwise?

if you are looking at the notes you posted from C harmonic minor and skip every 2nd note it spells B D F Ab .....B dim7 ... that is dim.

how are you defining a diminished scale? a diminished arpeggio is all minor 3rds we know ...but a scale?

as i remember ....half/whole and whole/half are considered symmetrical scales ...kind of manmade ...with less theoretical roots ....if the 7th harmonized chord of a harmonic minor scale is a diminished chord ...then the mode that follows is THE Diminished scale!

correct me if i'm wrong and i could be but i don't think harmonizing the major or melodic minor scales yields a diminished chord. only the harmoninc minor.


...Tim ...i listened to your sample discography! you freakin rock man!

[MalcolmAmos]

Acording to chord house ::: guitar room (advanced) -- online guitar chords and scales

C Diminished, Half
intervals: 1,b2,b3,3,b5,5,6,b7
half-steps: 1-2-1-2-1-2-1-2
notes: C,Db,Eb,E,Gb,G,A,Bb

C Diminished, Whole
intervals: 1,2,b3,4,b5,b6,6,7
half-steps: 2-1-2-1-2-1-2-1
notes: C,D,Eb,F,Gb,Ab,A,B

If that helps.......... never used it - had to look it up.

[Roscoe East]

Originally Posted by sammyp

well ...ok you've sent me back to my guitar and harmonization of the harmonic minor and i would differ ....i dare say the 7th mode of the harmonic minor is THE diminished scale. why do you say otherwise?

if you are looking at the notes you posted from C harmonic minor and skip every 2nd note it spells B D F Ab .....B dim7 ... that is dim.

how are you defining a diminished scale? a diminished arpeggio is all minor 3rds we know ...but a scale?

as i remember ....half/whole and whole/half are considered symmetrical scales ...kind of manmade ...with less theoretical roots ....if the 7th harmonized chord of a harmonic minor scale is a diminished chord ...then the mode that follows is THE Diminished scale!

correct me if i'm wrong

The reason the 7th mode -- or any mode -- of the harmonic minor scale can't be "THE diminished scale" is because it contains one explicitly non-diminished interval; that augmented second exempts it from being a true diminished scale.

[dtiii]

Sammy...

The diminished scale is an 8-note scale, also known as the octatonic scale. It can't be derived from a heptatonic, or 7-note scale like major or any of the minor scales. Take note of the repetition in the spellings that Malcom posted. That will not happen in a heptatonic scale.

Diminished triads can be derived from the following scales by harmonizing these scale degrees:
scale degree 7 from major
scale degree 2 from natural minor
scale degrees 2 and 7 from harmonic minor
scale degree 7 from melodic minor

Hope this helps,
d

[italianstalion]

The diminished scale are constructed alternatively with whole and half steps. It is basically a symmetrical scale that is made from a sequence of intervals. And because of this symmetry, the final result is three diminished scales. Db diminished, D diminished and Eb diminished.

i agree with you that there are very few talks about diminished scales. In fact if anyone knows a good lesson on this topic, they shall share it. I know i would like to enhance my knowledge.

[sammyp]

Originally Posted by Roscoe East

The reason the 7th mode -- or any mode -- of the harmonic minor scale can't be "THE diminished scale" is because it contains one explicitly non-diminished interval; that augmented second exempts it from being a true diminished scale.

there it is! thanks Roscoe ...i got it!

[FretlessMainly]

Diminished chords are lovely creations. There's a symmetry and order to how they are constructed that is unrivalled in Western music. Drawing on what has been posted, here's how I look at them:

Creat diminished 7th chords by stacking minor 3rds for a root b3 b5 bb7 structure. I'm going to use enharmonic equivalents insteat of double flats:

C Eb Gb A

Db E G Bb

D F Ab B

Now notice that these three chords comprise all twelve notes of the chromatic scale. That coupled with the bb7 also being a minor third from the root, means that there are really only three diminished 7th chords. In other words, Cdim7 is exactly the same as Ebdim7, which is exactly the same Gbdim7, which is the same as Adim7. The same is true of the other two groupings above.

Now how do you use dim7 chords?

1) as chromatic connectors, as in | CMaj7 | C#dim7 | Dmin7 | G7 |

C#dim7 is enharmonically equivalent to Dbdim7: Db E G Bb. Look closely at this chord structure. What we have is eseentially an Adominant7th chord without the root. So, the C#dim7 chord is functioning as a secondary dominant - in this case, as an A7(b9) or a V(b9) of II.

In jazz, you will commonly see, in a minor key: | Emin7(b5) | A7(b9) | Dmin |

My example above is an example of how the V(b9) chord of i minor (Dmin immediately above) can also be used in a Major key when the minor chord is functioning as a II chord instead of a minor tonic.

So what scales do you use?

There are indeed the diminished scales. Using C Db and D as the basis:

1. C 1/2, W: C Db Eb E Gb G A Bb
2. C W, 1/2: C D Eb F Gb Ab A B

3. Db 1/2, W: Db D E F G Ab Bb B
4. Db W, 1/2: Db Eb E Gb G A Bb C

5. D 1/2, W: D Eb F Gb Ab A B C
6. D W, 1/2: D E F G Ab Bb B Db

Scales 1 and 4 are the same, just displaced. The same is true 2 and 5 as well as 3 and 6. For the example I gave above (the C#dim7 that chromatically connects CMaj7 with Dmin7) I would use the C# W, 1/2 scale.

More later...