Diminished vs half diminished question

[ryco]

Can someone explain the function of a fully diminished chord/scale. And where does a full diminished chord occur naturally? It's got that funky old-timey sound to it but I hardly ever hear it used anymore. How does it resolve?

Full dim: R, M2, m3, P4, d5, bb7, (M7)

Half diminished occurs all over the place (vii in Ionian) and functions as a substitute for V (V9 without the root) a lot. Used as a substitute for minor chords sometimes; ex m9b5

Half dim: R, m2, m3, P4, d5. m6, m7

[Wrong Robot]

Well, Diminished harmony is a huge can of worms. I don't actually have that much time to get into it, but the thing about the diminished scale is that it's symmetrical. Typically you see what is referred to as the half-whole diminished scale. Starting on C, this scale is constructed like this:

C-Db-Eb-E-Gb-G-A-Bb-c

you will notice there are 8 tones in that scale, this makes it a little different from major/minor harmony. Also, due to being symmetrical. There are actually only 3 half-whole diminished scales.

Db(also E, G, Bb), D(also F, Ab, B) and Eb(also Gb, A, C)

Um, that's all I have time for now, perhaps some other theory goon will fill in what I left out.

There is also a whole-step half-step diminished scale, but um...yea... later, sorry.

[hateater]

Originally Posted by Wrong Robot

Well, Diminished harmony is a huge can of worms. I don't actually have that much time to get into it, but the thing about the diminished scale is that it's symmetrical. Typically you see what is referred to as the half-whole diminished scale. Starting on C, this scale is constructed like this:

C-Db-Eb-E-Gb-Ab-A-Bb-c

you will notice there are 8 tones in that scale, this makes it a little different from major/minor harmony. Also, due to being symmetrical. There are actually only 3 half-whole diminished scales.

Db(also E, G, Bb), D(also F, Ab, B) and Eb(also Gb, A, C)

Um, that's all I have time for now, perhaps some other theory goon will fill in what I left out.

There is also a whole-step half-step diminished scale, but um...yea... later, sorry.

This is GI all over again...

[Wrong Robot]

Right so anyway. The diminished chord is typically not seen all too often, though historically it has been used often to either bridge sections, modulation, or to create a sense of atonality, disambiguate the root or tonal center.

You don't see it too often in jazz, where the half-diminished is fairly common(being locrian, vii of ionian..etc.), but you do get a lot of diminished harmony in modern classical(eh..) newmusic...etc.

I personally use diminished harmony a lot when improvising in minor tonalities. The diminished scale, being 8 notes and fairly out of key with major/minor scales, has a great melodic quality to it that I really dig. But it's just one of those things, I trust my ears with.

Um, again, diminished harmony is a can of worms, hopefully some more knowledgeable cats'll come along and fill in the blanks.

[emjazz]

Hey Wrong Robot, if you like the sound of diminished lines than you owe it to yourself to get the Slonimsky book. It's called the "Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns" by Nicolas Slonimsky. This is the book that Coltrane used to practice out of. It's also what Allan Holdsworth uses.

[Mike Dimin]

Originally Posted by ryco

Can someone explain the function of a fully diminished chord/scale. And where does a full diminished chord occur naturally? It's got that funky old-timey sound to it but I hardly ever hear it used anymore. How does it resolve?

Full dim: R, M2, m3, P4, d5, bb7, (M7)

Half diminished occurs all over the place (vii in Ionian) and functions as a substitute for V (V9 without the root) a lot. Used as a substitute for minor chords sometimes; ex m9b5

Half dim: R, m2, m3, P4, d5. m6, m7

The diminsihed chord is often used as a passing chord between 2 chords. The diminshed 7th chord also has 2 tritones (R-5th and 3rd to 7th) allowing it to substitute for 2 different dominant 7th chords.

Mike

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Mike Dimin

The diminsihed chord is often used as a passing chord between 2 chords. The diminshed 7th chord also has 2 tritones (R-5th and 3rd to 7th) allowing it to substitute for 2 different dominant 7th chords.

Mike

Actually, allowing for enharmonic equivalences, it can substitute for four different dominant 7ths. Bdim7 can function as G7b9 w/o the root, E7b9 w/o the root (= G#dim7), Bb7b9 w/o the root (= Ddim7), or Db7b9 w/o the root (= Fdim7).

[Mike Dimin]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

Actually, allowing for enharmonic equivalences, it can substitute for four different dominant 7ths. Bdim7 can function as G7b9 w/o the root, E7b9 w/o the root (= G#dim7), Bb7b9 w/o the root (= Ddim7), or Db7b9 w/o the root (= Fdim7).

Absolutley - I don't know what I was thinking

Mike

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Wrong Robot

Typically you see what is referred to as the half-whole diminished scale. Starting on C, this scale is constructed like this:

C-Db-Eb-E-Gb-Ab-A-Bb-c

I believe that would be C-Db-Eb-E-Gb-G-A-Bb-C, no?

The whole-half variant would be C-D-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-A-B-C.

Both scales contain the chord tones C-Eb-Gb-A.

[Wrong Robot]

Ya, you know, the brain, it does funny things sometimes, I actually originally had written it out with sharps, but it looked funny, so I backtracked over it with flats, you know, we all make mistakes.

[Pacman]

Originally Posted by Wrong Robot

You don't see it too often in jazz, where the half-diminished is fairly common(being locrian, vii of ionian..etc.),

Just for clarity's sake, the half-diminished chord most often functions as a ii chord in a minor key (Dm7b5 - G7b9 - Cm7), not as vii of a major I.

Hope I'm not being too nit-picky....

[emjazz]

Originally Posted by Pacman

Just for clarity's sake, the half-diminished chord most often functions as a ii chord in a minor key (Dm7b5 - G7b9 - Cm7), not as vii of a major I.

Hope I'm not being too nit-picky....

Good catch.

I do have a question though. I'm going over Ornithology in the omnibook and there's a change in it where the A half-diminished goes to D7 and then to G. Why would this be done? It only happens once and it's during the solo. Maybe this isn't enough info......any thoughts?

[Mike Dimin]

Originally Posted by emjazz

Good catch.

I do have a question though. I'm going over Ornithology in the omnibook and there's a change in it where the A half-diminished goes to D7 and then to G. Why would this be done? It only happens once and it's during the solo. Maybe this isn't enough info......any thoughts?

Often times the minor ii-v doesn't resolve as expected, or for that matter the major ii-v doesn't. An example would be How High The Moon: A-7/D7/G-7 then A-7b5/D7(b9)/ Gmaj7. It's a bit of a decptive cadence - in your case, setting up the G minor and then resololving to G major

Mike

[Mike Dimin]

Originally Posted by Pacman

Just for clarity's sake, the half-diminished chord most often functions as a ii chord in a minor key (Dm7b5 - G7b9 - Cm7), not as vii of a major I.

Hope I'm not being too nit-picky....

Additionally, the locrian mode is not usually played over ii-7(b5). You will often find the Locrian #2 which comes from the 6th degree of the Melodic Minor Scale

Mike

[Wrong Robot]

Originally Posted by Pacman

Just for clarity's sake, the half-diminished chord most often functions as a ii chord in a minor key (Dm7b5 - G7b9 - Cm7), not as vii of a major I.

Hope I'm not being too nit-picky....

Ya, I was aware of this. But good for throwing it out there anyway.

[Wrong Robot]

Originally Posted by Mike Dimin

Often times the minor ii-v doesn't resolve as expected, or for that matter the major ii-v doesn't. An example would be How High The Moon: A-7/D7/G-7 then A-7b5/D7(b9)/ Gmaj7. It's a bit of a decptive cadence - in your case, setting up the G minor and then resololving to G major

Mike

And as for the WHY? because anything that catches you off guard is hip!

[emjazz]

Originally Posted by Mike Dimin

Often times the minor ii-v doesn't resolve as expected, or for that matter the major ii-v doesn't. An example would be How High The Moon: A-7/D7/G-7 then A-7b5/D7(b9)/ Gmaj7. It's a bit of a decptive cadence - in your case, setting up the G minor and then resololving to G major

Mike

Thanks Mike! Actually, I was told to look at How Hight the Moon because it's the same as Ornithology.

[emjazz]

Originally Posted by Mike Dimin

Additionally, the locrian mode is not usually played over ii-7(b5). You will often find the Locrian #2 which comes from the 6th degree of the Melodic Minor Scale

Mike

Yay Melodic Minor!!!!!

[geoffkhan]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

I believe that would be C-Db-Eb-E-Gb-G-A-Bb-C, no?

The whole-half variant would be C-D-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-A-B-C.

Both scales contain the chord tones C-Eb-Gb-A.

Yes, this is correct. Good catch.

[RhythmBassist01]

Diminished and Augmented chords are Dissonant, and Major and Minor chords are Consonant.

You can use diminished chords to modulate as well.