Dissonance

[DudeistMonk]

I was thinking today, that everyone focuses on what sounds good, but what about learning how to play bad?! To improve your grasp on what sounds good, and learn how to use dissonant sounds in a creative context.

So I figured hows about a conversation on dissonance, I don't know a lot about it terms of theory myself so...

I'm sure there are different degrees/levels of dissonance, can someone shed some light on these?

Any songs that make particularly good use of sounding intentionally wrong?

Any good references on waveforms and the science aspect of the whole thing?

[John Wentzien]

Well-
I know the most dissonant interval in western music is the "minor 2nd" that is 2 notes one-half step apart..such as A and A#.

[DocBop]

There are no bad notes, just notes not handled properly. One persons idea of dissonance is another's idea of beautiful tension. You can put any note on a weak beat even common avoid notes or as a passing tone. If you look at he Bebop scales in general they are adding the extra chromatic note to shift avoid notes to weak beats.

Transcribe good soloists and you will see lots of notes that don't fit the chord/scale, but they add tension and create interest. And as Chick Corea says its not what you play outside, but how you come back in. Try it yourself play all "wrong" notes for a chord, but resolve to a chord tone(s) on a strong beat at the end of the lick it will sound great and like you are in control.

[mutedeity]

I don't really think it's a matter of consonance sounding good versus dissonance sounding bad. Also what is dissonant is a matter of opinion and taste anyway.

What is widely accepted as dissonance and consonance has changed over time as well. Other things to consider are how intervals are voiced, for example a b2 versus a b9 will have a different degree of dissonance to most people. You will find dissonance used functionally in most western music since tension and release are one of the primary compositional considerations in everything from jazz, blues, Latin, rock and so on.

I would say that consonance and dissonance is more a function of conditioning and expectation than it is a definition of which intervals sound "good and bad".

[Bob the bassist]

I love tritones. (E A# e, f'rinstance)

Also, for a REALLY crappy sound, I'll grab the A or D around the 12th, bend it right up over top the next string up so they cross over, then fret it and play both strings.

[HaVIC5]

Concepts of dissonance/consonance change. The fourth in classical counterpoint is considered mildly dissonant and is avoided, but our ear for popular music doesn't consider it dissonant at all. Some 20th century composers thought up the idea of reversing all the rules for traditional 17th century counterpoint to create "Dissonant counterpoint". You have to be very well grounded in the traditional rules to really delve into figuring out ways to reverse traditional tendencies. Interesting stuff, to say the least, but rather academic, IMO.

[BassChuck]

There's only 12 notes and the combinations have been fairly well examined over the last 500 years. (all you 'Just Tone' guys just chill, you know what I'm talking about)

As DocBop said, dissonance is just a note(s) that aren't handled well. And by extention, we could say, "notes that are not expected in a certain style".

As far as what 'sounds bad'...... consider playing with a poor rhythmic concept. That way all notes are in the wrong place, don't match, and are handled poorly.

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by mutedeity

I don't really think it's a matter of consonance sounding good versus dissonance sounding bad. Also what is dissonant is a matter of opinion and taste anyway...I would say that consonance and dissonance is more a function of conditioning and expectation than it is a definition of which intervals sound "good and bad".

Exactly right. In modern music, dissonance can be used very effectively for creative effect, for example, in order to convey a sense of conflict or struggle. If it adds to the overall drama, vision or artistic scope of the piece, who's to say that it necessarily sounds "bad"? That's a value judgment that doesn't necessarily apply from one person to the next. It depends very much on one's own frame of reference.

Originally Posted by mutedeity

What is widely accepted as dissonance and consonance has changed over time as well.

During the Middle Ages, the Roman Catholic Church decreed that any tonality other than major key tonality was "of the devil". That's right: No minor anything. And certainly nothing augmented or diminished. My, how times have changed...

MM

[DudeistMonk]

I guess my wording was kind of off, obviously dissonance can sound good, in fact that is why I made the post. I was just looking for more theory on the other harmonic relationships and how they work how people here use them. Basically I plan on going home tonight and trying to make some clashing, ucky sounding stuff so that I know what they these harmonic intervals sound like, and therefore know when I'm not playing in key/improve my ears knowledge.

Also I was just bored and trying to start a topic that wasn't going to degenerate into theory vs. ear or the merits of taking lessons.

During the Middle Ages, the Roman Catholic Church decreed that any tonality other than major key tonality was "of the devil". That's right: No minor anything. And certainly nothing augmented or diminished. My, how times have changed...

That is an awesome factoid.

[john turner]

Originally Posted by MysticMichael

During the Middle Ages, the Roman Catholic Church decreed that any tonality other than major key tonality was "of the devil". That's right: No minor anything. And certainly nothing augmented or diminished. My, how times have changed...

MM

Originally Posted by DudeistMonk

That is an awesome factoid.

it's also awesomely wrong - there are many examples of early church music in non-major keys, not to mention pretty much the entire catalog of known gregorian chants.

this is an urban legend built around the flat 5th tritone - diablo en musica - which was primarily "banned" because it was hard to tune.

[john turner]

Originally Posted by DudeistMonk

I was thinking today, that everyone focuses on what sounds good, but what about learning how to play bad?! To improve your grasp on what sounds good, and learn how to use dissonant sounds in a creative context.

well, i guess that's one way of going about it, but to me it seems like wanting to learn how to drive by repeatedly backing into a pole.

[DudeistMonk]

well, i guess that's one way of going about it, but to me it seems like wanting to learn how to drive by repeatedly backing into a pole.

ROFL, yeah I suppose it is... but maybe in a well insured rental car.

Seriously I just thought it would be interesting to spend a night trying to absorb as many off sounds as possible so that I recognize them when I hear them, and I get bored at work and the forum needed a new topic, hence I left the thread really open ended.

[john turner]

Originally Posted by DudeistMonk

ROFL, yeah I suppose it is... but maybe in a well insured rental car.

Seriously I just thought it would be interesting to spend a night trying to absorb as many off sounds as possible so that I recognize them when I hear them, and I get bored at work and the forum needed a new topic, hence I left the thread really open ended.

oh no, i think it's a good idea to know why stuff does or doesn't work. as you investigate this stuff you can also investigate arrangement concerns - things that are "too dissonant" for certain instrumental layers might be more "ear-acceptable" with others. more harmonic density of even standard intervals is acceptable on guitar than on bass, for instance.

[Joel S.]

Originally Posted by john turner

well, i guess that's one way of going about it, but to me it seems like wanting to learn how to drive by repeatedly backing into a pole.

lol! It's more like learning to drive in the snow by drifting around a parking lot.

This is an interesting topic though, because the OP is right. Most of the threads allude to sticking with scales and using chord tones. Some mention passing tones, but never go into detail. However, whenever "is theory a set of rules?" threads pop up people are quick to mention they're just guidelines meant to be ignored at times. So, let's hear some ways to "break the rules" in basslines, songs and solos.

[john turner]

well, dissonance in a bassline is gonna be harder to "sell" than it would in a higher frequency instrument, just because of the discomfort to the listener caused by rampant beating lol. that doesn't mean it's impossible, though.

even scalar tones used at questionable times can sound out, especially if it's on a fretted bass that's not intonated properly.

[ryco]

Dissonance is what moves music forward. Dissonance sets up a tension which needs released. Once this resolution is made another dissonance is set up, to be resolved again. This is how music chugs forward = tension - release, tension - release.

Thelonious made a career out of setting up dissonance and resolving it. It is said he quit playing when he couldn't find any more ugly notes to play. No, I don't know if it's a true story

[Joel S.]

Originally Posted by john turner

well, dissonance in a bassline is gonna be harder to "sell" than it would in a higher frequency instrument, just because of the discomfort to the listener caused by rampant beating lol. that doesn't mean it's impossible, though.

even scalar tones used at questionable times can sound out, especially if it's on a fretted bass that's not intonated properly.

One thing I've been trying to do is use more tensions. I learned "Move on Up" by Curtis Mayfield, and that takes advantage of the 9 (slides up to it). I've been in the habit of sticking with landing on strong chord tones on strong beats, however I jammed with a very talented bassist the other day who frequently landed on 9s and 11s.

[BassChuck]

Originally Posted by john turner

well, dissonance in a bassline is gonna be harder to "sell" than it would in a higher frequency instrument, just because of the discomfort to the listener caused by rampant beating lol. that doesn't mean it's impossible, though.

even scalar tones used at questionable times can sound out, especially if it's on a fretted bass that's not intonated properly.

I agree. I think its a matter of psyco-accoustics. People tend to hear the lowest note as a root. Try playing an "A" while everyone else in the band plays a C chord..... given their best efforts to play a C chord, your "A" makes it Am7. Playing notes from a scalar point of view can just make the harmony sound like a 'sus' chord.

[john turner]

maybe it's just me, but i consider dissonance and tension to be different things, much like red and pink are different colors.

there's a difference, to me, in, for example, using the flat 5th as a passing note to go from a I to a IV chord, and say, stacking a b2-b4 doublestop on bass on the downbeat of a major chord, but i guess it's just a question of degrees. that's why i said a "harder sell" - passing notes are easier to present pleasantly in a song than hardcore, full-on dissonance, but it's all in your presentation and salesmanship. i've seen guys who could sell parachutes to a whale.

[john turner]

Originally Posted by Joel S.

One thing I've been trying to do is use more tensions. I learned "Move on Up" by Curtis Mayfield, and that takes advantage of the 9 (slides up to it). I've been in the habit of sticking with landing on strong chord tones on strong beats, however I jammed with a very talented bassist the other day who frequently landed on 9s and 11s.

love that tune.

and here, the guy landing on the 9's and 11's is an element of one's musical salesmanship heh - sorta what i was talking about.