Do any of you play like this??

Saxn · #1 08-02-2011, 03:12 PM

I have been talking with a guy that has a few (like thirty or so) years on me playing bass, and he is giving me some advice that contradicts everything I have been reading about and practicing re: major and minor scale first positions. He INSISTS that I should have the scale root under my middle finger whether playing major or minor scales, for the ability to use the index finger to quickly access notes before the root. I have tried this method a time or two and it seems to me that having the root under your middle finger in minor puts some of the most-used intervals (the 3rd, 5th, and first ocatve) at more awkward places than doing it the way I have read about - with the index finger on the root.

I totally see why middle finger on root is the accepted method for playing major, but do any of you use the position he is recommending for minor stuff? And if so, why? What is the advantage?

icecycle66 · #2 08-02-2011, 03:20 PM

Do you plan on playing anything under the root? If so then you need to have access to those fret spaces. Depending on how much backward motion you plan on doing you can even shift down to the ring or pinky fingers.

If you only plan on going down after you have already gone up, and if you start with your index finger on the root, then the index finger will already be in place.

The progression of the part should dictate where your finger position starts more than simply, "Start with (given finger) on the root."

You should at least be familiar with how to start your root, or any place in the scale, with different fingers so that you don't get stuck one day needing to go in a particular direction on the fretboard and not having any fingers left over to do so.

I really sucks when you need to go one more step lower and have to do a wierd slide/flub thing because all your fingers are cramped up infront of the note you need to go to and your brain can't fingure out what's happening until a beat and a half later.

MalcolmAmos · #3 08-02-2011, 03:22 PM

I'm country and everything is major, but, if you go back three frets from C you will get A (C's relative minor, Am) does that have anything to do with it?

icecycle66 · #4 08-02-2011, 03:23 PM

Oh, starting with a finger other than the index finger on the root is also useful if you are prone to letting wild chords fly out with no warning.

Mushroo · #5 08-02-2011, 03:28 PM

You should be able to play any major or minor scale starting with any finger, this is just basic competence on the instrument.

I personally would avoid any teacher who tells you "this is the ONLY way to play this scale!!!"

Saxn · #6 08-02-2011, 03:37 PM

Thanks for the replies. Yeah, he's not so much a 'teacher' as an 'old guy that has played bass a while' - and he wants to impart advice. I am just getting the feeling that this particular piece of advice might be - well - bad.

A little more disclosure here... he's not exactly up to speed on his theory, so trying to pull a reason out of him using theory-related "whys" has been unproductive.

As far as my PERSONAL technique, I agree wholeheartedly with both Mushroo and icecycle66. I am currently working on scales from all positions, but am only proficient in three... and I hope I am using the names right! The "first position" of course, the position below the first position (index on the minor 7th in minor, 6th in major) and the position above the first position (index finger on the second). I am sort of working outwards from first position, I guess.

Anyway, it looks like the guy might be locked in "the box" in this case, and I will just have to figure out how to explain tactfully that I'm going to pass on this particular piece of advice in favor of my own experience and reading.

Mushroo · #7 08-02-2011, 03:39 PM

Learn what you can from this guy, but don't un-learn other valuable lessons you've learned in the past. That is my advice.

bassbrad · #8 08-02-2011, 03:39 PM

I don't use that as a hard and fast rule, personally I use whatever fingering works best. In my tech buster days i figured and practiced just about every way to finger 1 and 2 octave scales as well as chord voiceings with the intent of flexibility.

Saxn · #9 08-02-2011, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

I'm country and everything is major, but, if you go back three frets from C you will get A (C's relative minor, Am) does that have anything to do with it?

No sir I am afraid not. Saying the term "relative minor" to this cat is going to get you a whole lot of blank stare and most likely something about not being into the "technical stuff".

ugly_bassplayer · #10 08-02-2011, 03:48 PM

IMO your teacher needs a teacher.

Saxn · #11 08-02-2011, 03:48 PM

Dammit he's not my teacher!!

ugly_bassplayer · #12 08-02-2011, 03:50 PM

Ok, that guy needs a teacher.

Kael · #13 08-02-2011, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroo

You should be able to play any major or minor scale starting with any finger, this is just basic competence on the instrument.

Bingo. Well, add "and mode" after the "any scale" and you'd have it.

Saxn · #14 08-02-2011, 03:51 PM

Agreed. I am assuming, though, that over thirty years' time he has acquired some useful tricks that I might take home. This just wasn't one of them.

Papa Dangerous · #15 08-02-2011, 04:00 PM

Perhaps you should take his advice and one up him. Learn how to use each of your four fingers on the root. This gives a good idea of the fret board, and intervals.

Saxn · #16 08-02-2011, 04:16 PM

Well... yes, and at the risk of hijacking my own thread (if you can DO that) then let me ask this in regards to positions. It's been gnawing at me for some time and now is as good a time as any.

When you say you should be familiar with all positions, does that mean playing scales/modes from each INTERVALLIC position (i.e. index finger on root, then 2nd, then 3rd, etc) or does that mean playing scales/modes from each FRET position (i.e. index finger on root, then minor 2nd, then 2nd, etc)... this will really help my practice regimen. I guess the short way to ask this is: are there twelve positions, or only seven?

Mushroo · #17 08-02-2011, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saxn

Well... yes, and at the risk of hijacking my own thread (if you can DO that) then let me ask this in regards to positions. It's been gnawing at me for some time and now is as good a time as any.

When you say you should be familiar with all positions, does that mean playing scales/modes from each INTERVALLIC position (i.e. index finger on root, then 2nd, then 3rd, etc) or does that mean playing scales/modes from each FRET position (i.e. index finger on root, then minor 2nd, then 2nd, etc)... this will really help my practice regimen. I guess the short way to ask this is: are there twelve positions, or only seven?

I practice:
1st finger on root
2nd finger on root
(3rd finger on root is not very useful but practice it if you like)
4th finger on root

Papa Dangerous · #18 08-02-2011, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saxn

Well... yes, and at the risk of hijacking my own thread (if you can DO that) then let me ask this in regards to positions. It's been gnawing at me for some time and now is as good a time as any.

When you say you should be familiar with all positions, does that mean playing scales/modes from each INTERVALLIC position (i.e. index finger on root, then 2nd, then 3rd, etc) or does that mean playing scales/modes from each FRET position (i.e. index finger on root, then minor 2nd, then 2nd, etc)... this will really help my practice regimen. I guess the short way to ask this is: are there twelve positions, or only seven?

I think the best way to approach it is to learn the pattern for Major, learn the intervals in that pattern and know on to get up and down the neck. Then do the same with all the minors.

Know how to reach the 3rd from the Tonic, how to get to the 4th and 5th from the tonic. To the octave from the tonic. The figure out how to get from the 3rd to the tonic, the 4th 5th to the tonic.

Do things of that nature to figure out almost anyway to get to any note with ease.

Saxn · #19 08-02-2011, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Papa Dangerous

I think the best way to approach it is to learn the pattern for Major, learn the intervals in that pattern and know on to get up and down the neck. Then do the same with all the minors.

Know how to reach the 3rd from the Tonic, how to get to the 4th and 5th from the tonic. To the octave from the tonic. The figure out how to get from the 3rd to the tonic, the 4th 5th to the tonic.

Do things of that nature to figure out almost anyway to get to any note with ease.

Scary - I'm doing almost exactly this RIGHT NOW

I have always thought in intervals since jamming on my primary instrument anyway, so it's been a natural progression (ha ha) to apply that to the bass, which - to me anyway - practically BEGS for this sort of application! It's already second nature to go to/from any interval within the first octave, so I am getting there.

In regards to Mushroo's practice method, is this "x finger on the root" thing the standard way positions are named? I have seen references to 1st, 2nd, etc position, but my searches on the topic have been... less than successful

Richard Lindsey · #20 08-02-2011, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saxn

Scary - I'm doing almost exactly this RIGHT NOW

I have always thought in intervals since jamming on my primary instrument anyway, so it's been a natural progression (ha ha) to apply that to the bass, which - to me anyway - practically BEGS for this sort of application! It's already second nature to go to/from any interval within the first octave, so I am getting there.

In regards to Mushroo's practice method, is this "x finger on the root" thing the standard way positions are named? I have seen references to 1st, 2nd, etc position, but my searches on the topic have been... less than successful

Unless this has changed and I didn't get the memo, positions are traditionally named according to where your *first* finger is, basically, whether or not that's the finger you're using to fret your first note.

So if I were to play an A major scale starting with my 4th finger on the 5th fret of the E string, then going to the B on the 2nd fret of the A string with my 1st finger and the C# on the 4th fret with my 3rd finger, I would be in 2nd position, not 5th.