Do I need a bass instructor?

[Lichtaffen]

I have no objections to taking lessons. I found a local teacher in my area off the Carol Kaye website. I figured if she endorses the guy, then he must be pretty good. He told me to buy the Jamerson "Standing in the Shadows" book and then call him. I did. He came over, didn't really assess my abilities and weaknesses. Got me right into the book without assessing my reading abilities (which I admit are pretty weak). We tried to work out some parts and I struggled badly through the reading, especially the rhythms. He then told me to learn a little every day from the book and give him a call again when I've got the Jamerson style down. He said I'd know when I was ready.

This makes no f-ing sense to me. I had originally asked to learn jazz bass. I love Jamerson to pieces, but from my understanding, Jamerson was an upright jazz player before he did the Motown thing. As a teacher, wouldn't you want to teach a student a player's influences and roots before you progress to that player's crowning achievements? This teacher's opinion was that I did't need a teacher and I should be able to progress on my own.

I'm coming from a very "swiss-cheese" type of background in music. I was a guitarist for 20 years and played in various bands. I never really learned to read. My theory is all over the place, not terrible, but not solid either. I play guitar pretty well and wrote, performed and recorded with various bands rather successfully. I switched to bass because a friend needed a bass player for a dozen or so gigs. I did well and in the process fell in love with bass. Now I want to learn to be a solid jazz bassist and be able to walk into a gig and read charts, etc. I feel like more than anything I need direction as far as what to study. I practice 1-2 hours a day, but I feel a lot of that time may be wasted due to studying the wrong things.

I've been working on my reading since then. I also work from the Jamerson book, a Jaco book, Friedmann's "Building Walking Basslines", practice scales and exercises and recently started working from the Real Book. I'm learning and improving noticeably, but still don't feel like I'm working up to my full potential.

I suppose my question is (after this big rant): Do I really need a teacher or can I instruct myself through books, etc.? I'm not a dummy, but I also not a natural talent.

[ohskigod]

sounds like this guy is more "guiding" then teaching. which, given your experience in music might be a good or bad thing, but from the tone of your post I would guess bad.

I started the Bass about 7-8 months ago. I had music theory training, but the problem was it was close to 20 years ago. Luckily my teacher took the time to figure out the best way to start me off and so far its worked like a charm.

I may not be an expert musician, but I;'ll throw my .02 in anyway, if he didnt assess you and is throwing you into something that might be over your head, might want to find another teacher.

[BassChuck]

I hope I'm not being an asshat here, but there may have been something about your playing and/or experience that he just didn't want to deal with... or he's giving you a big task to see what you can do on your own. If this doesn't sit well with you... look for another instructor.

[freeedge369]

I would recommend going through an institution of some kind, my example being Blue Sky Music in the Albany region.

Consistency is hugely important in learning for most people (you may be an exception) and a weekly lesson with a consistent method book can do wonders

[jazzbo]

Originally Posted by Lichtaffen

give him a call again when I've got the Jamerson style down.

Wow. Well, I am a certified Jamerson disciple. I have been studying and playing his lines, at home and at gigs, as well as teaching his lines for over 10 years. I do not, have the "Jamerson style down."

What you got was not helpful to you. To some, although I can't imagine that it would be that many people, it may have been, I don't know. Trust your gut. If it tells you that it's not working, even at this early stage, then it's not working. It doesn't mean that this is a bad teacher, (although I would question some of his method). It just means that it's not a good fit for you. You're looking for things, (assessing where you're at, strengths, weaknesses, playing jazz), that this teacher isn't providing. Find what it is that you want. Finding a teacher is important. Finding a good teacher is very important. When people at this site say "Get a teacher," what they're really saying is to get a good teacher. It's personal. Keep looking and don't get discouraged that this one didn't work out.

I would suggest going to a local jazz gig and asking the bassist at the gig to give you some recommendations. Chat him/her up, let him/her know your interests, and ask if they could recommend a teacher.

Good luck.

[Rudreax]

When it comes down to it, no matter how helpful a teacher's info can be, if it is not helping YOU, it's pretty much useless.

Short answer: No, you don't really need a teacher, but getting one will help immensely. I'd suggest you find a new one, too.

[Blake Bass]

I bought the Jamerson book 10 or 12 years ago and I still practice out of it today. It is a great book that will improve your reading exponentially, and if you get past all of the notes (reading) and listen you'll learn to groove like nobody's business. You may still need a teacher to correct technique problems and to help you learn to read.

[DocBop]

You never know what a teacher is like till you take a lesson. I've had lesson with big name players that sucked and lessons from some local that were recommended that were great. I usually give a instructor a couple lesson to see how it goes, but it doesn't feel right and what they assign isn't making sense or having a effect I will call them talk about it. It they can't convince me they have a method to their teaching I cancel and save both of our time.

As for Jamerson book there is so much to be learned from that book, but it depends on your ability. If you reading is weak it is a great way to get it together reading great sounding and realistic lines. Cool to workout multiple fingerings for the lines since some cover quite a range. Then studying Jamerson's style so you can create you own lines. I find reminding myself he was a DB player first makes a lot of his lines understandable. A lot of that you may need a teacher to help you get up to speed with.

As for your lesson I would say something wasn't right and you aren't seeing it and instructor not interested and his answer was a nice way to say it wasn't working for him either. I would say if you like the Jamerson book then work on it for a few weeks, keep notes on what gives you problems. Then find another teacher, tell them you want to work thru the Jamerson book and have questions.

[Ray C Parrish]

Real simple, never call this man again. He is not a teacher. He might be able to play, but he is not a teacher.

Look for referrals every where you can in your town. You will start to notice the same name coming up, there is a reason for that. If the new instructor does not have you commit to a minimum of 4 lessons at first, they are not a teacher. No matter what your skill level is.

[Lichtaffen]

Thank you all. I appreciate the opinions. They seem to be in line with what I was thinking: "Have a teacher, just not this one." Agreed.

DocBop: I have started to notice how Jamerson plays in positions like a DB player. It has helped me immensely to learn from this book. I never used to play in open positions before, but now I'm learning. It's helped my reading too.
Ara

[Bass V]

...this guy didn't want to teach a beginner, and it's understandable, but he should have told you that from the first contact.
There are many fundamentals to knowing/learning an instrument before you even pick it up.
If you know the physical style you wish to play in, then focus on finding someone that does that, and has plenty of teaching experience from the bottom up, altho if all else fails, you could rely on luck in getting a new teacher that has the correct mind set and methods ready to go.
As mentioned, talk to all the bassists in your area, and don't forget the symphony. Even tho they focus on stand-up, many do both and often know capable teachers.
Until then, check out youtube for some - bass lesson - starter info, then keep progressing towards your interests. It's free and readily available.

Good luck, and have fun!

[mstott25]

Maybe he was trying to have a Mr. Miyagi moment with you.

Whatever the case I've known (and studied) with a couple of guys from Carol's website in the past and my experience indicated that their affiliation with her was pretty loose. In fact I have no idea how she goes about selecting those guys because the two I met did not share a lot of Carol's ideas. So I'd take that with a grain of salt.

It seems to me that this guy has enough on his plate right now and doesn't *need* to teach students. Some learners are very independent and can take a little bit of direction like that, run with it and call the guy up again in two months. You might be different. You deserve to study with someone who'll give you the amount of direction, encouragement, inspiration etc. to keep you moving in the right direction.

Search for greener pastures for now and who knows, in a few months you might be a better fit with this guy and the two of you can enjoy your wax on wax off musical journey together.

[Lichtaffen]

Originally Posted by mstott25

Maybe he was trying to have a Mr. Miyagi moment with you.

You know, I was thinking that, but I didn't want to say anything because I thought I was reading into it too much. I will say one thing about his method. I have progressed since the lesson due to trying my best to learn from the book.

The other funny thing is (and I don't want to be flamed for saying this) I asked him if Carol Kaye really did record those alleged Jamerson tracks. He was very evasive, but basically indicated that he believes it was Jamerson. Just a funny side note.

All in all, I think he is a decent guy. He wasn't trying to rip me off or anything. I just think everyone learns differently. I like more interaction with an instructor.
Ara

[Michael Case]

I think your first mistake was searching for a teacher on the Carol Kaye website. From my understanding she ISN'T a jazz player, so why would you look for a jazz teacher on her site? Like stated earlier, go to some jazz gigs, talk to the bass players, piano players, horn players. Transcribe solos from the jazz greats on tunes you want to learn. Transcribe bass lines from Ray Brown, Paul Chambers, Scott LaFaro. Buy the Rufus Reid book "The Evolving Bassist." While I agree that studying the Jamerson book will improve your reading and is a wonderful resource, it isn't a jazz text, you will not learn how to build walking lines from it.

[mstott25]

Originally Posted by Lichtaffen

The other funny thing is (and I don't want to be flamed for saying this) I asked him if Carol Kaye really did record those alleged Jamerson tracks. He was very evasive, but basically indicated that he believes it was Jamerson. Just a funny side note.

All in all, I think he is a decent guy. He wasn't trying to rip me off or anything. I just think everyone learns differently. I like more interaction with an instructor.
Ara

Yeah I'm sure he has his own opinion about that Jamerson/Kaye deal but it's such a volatile issue I don't blame him for playing it safe.

Jamerson is great and that is a great book but I don't think it's necessary to start with Motown for your goals. Jamerson was a jazz guy that applied what he knew to pop hits. Seems like you want to head in the direction of jazz and a good teacher will be able to get you there.

If you can't find a local teacher you still have plenty of options. There's Todd Coolman's book "The Bottom Line" which is great, there's the Friedland books which I never used but I've heard great things about and Ed Friedland is a heck of a teacher. Then of course there's the Todd Johnson DVDs which are just like taking personal lessons with him. There's Cliff Engel who teaches online who will personalize your lessons for you and he'll definitely get you walking. All of these options will help you reach your goals. I think it's important to pick one teacher/book/method and stick it out for a while. There's so many options out there that it's easy to get sidetracked or want to change directions mid-course but all of those methods and teachers basically teach the same thing for walking bass. Oh yeah, before I forget, I checked out Ed Fuqua's book (he's on TB in the Double Bass side) and Ed is a MONSTER player and his book is as good as Todd Coolman's IMO.

I love Carol Kaye's playing and her books have worked wonders for lots of people out there. I would recommend the books above first but that's because I think the other guys do a better job of communicating and leading the student along in their books (or in Todd Johnson's case, his DVDs).

Lots of options out there! Let us know how your search goes.

[mstott25]

Originally Posted by Michael Case

I think your first mistake was searching for a teacher on the Carol Kaye website. From my understanding she ISN'T a jazz player, so why would you look for a jazz teacher on her site? Like stated earlier, go to some jazz gigs, talk to the bass players, piano players, horn players. Transcribe solos from the jazz greats on tunes you want to learn. Transcribe bass lines from Ray Brown, Paul Chambers, Scott LaFaro. Buy the Rufus Reid book "The Evolving Bassist." While I agree that studying the Jamerson book will improve your reading and is a wonderful resource, it isn't a jazz text, you will not learn how to build walking lines from it.

Carol Kaye can definitely play jazz. She's not an in demand bassist in New York like Ed Fuqua or Todd Coolman but she's definitely no slouch. Ask Marco Panascia.

[jazzbass72]

Originally Posted by Michael Case

I think your first mistake was searching for a teacher on the Carol Kaye website. From my understanding she ISN'T a jazz player, so why would you look for a jazz teacher on her site?

Hey Michael,
I didn't know you had moved out to SLC, I am sure you'll get tons of good work there. In regards to Carol Kaye not being a jazz player, she actually came up as a fine bebop jazz guitarist in the '50s, and her career as a studio bassist, playing mostly popular styles, happened later. But jazz has always been her favorite genre, and it still is.

Carol is an extraordinary musician and educator (yes, I did learn tons when studying privately with her) and she deserves our outmost respect for her monumental achievements in her 60 year career. If you've never heard her play jazz, here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8fiTABxtbg

Hopefully, that sounds jazz enough to you all ;-)

-Marco