Do I understand modes?

[Bootzilla]

You see a lot of instructional video's and articles (mostly for guitar) that talk extensively about modes like they are the holy grail to soloing. My idea of modes was that you have a key the song is in and then when the fourth chord of that key is played you use the fourth mode of the key for the melody. This mode uses the same notes as the original key but the notes have a different role. In essence this means that you can just learn your chords (they provide all the notes with an important role) and use chromatics or key notes for additional notes. So why are all instructional guys making such a fuzz about modes and their sounds? Is there more to modes than I think there is?

BTW. I know you can have music with the key being a mode and then it makes sense to know that mode but I haven't seen this being used anywhere yet.

[PlanetEarth]

Originally Posted by Bootzilla

My idea of modes was that you have a key the song is in and then when the fourth chord of that key is played you use the fourth mode of the key for the melody.

With that, the short answer is, no, ya don't understand... Dig deeper my friend.

-PE

[JTE]

Na you don"t got it. However, that IS how it's presented. Searc for modes, and you'll fibd a plethora of accurate and practical discussions.

John

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by PlanetEarth

With that, the short answer is, no, ya don't understand... Dig deeper my friend.

-PE

The long answer is Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooo.



Consider the source: Guitar videos. Those guys have been pleasuring themselves over modes for years.

[slybass3000]

This is true mainly in Major keys. Each mode has a specific scale construction AND a specific function within a major key. The minor key usually implies more then just one scale but the minor harmonic scale will outlined perfectly the ii and the v in a minor key most of the time.

As an example there are 3 minors mode in a major key ,ii,iii and vi and the basic chord construction is the same for all 3 but not the notes that connect them.
THEY ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE. This is why for bass player it is important while playing a bassline to use the right scale or mode on specific chords. To me modes are really helpful for playing the right notes on specific chords. I can tell easily when I hear a bass player that doesn't know his theory by playing wrong notes in a bassline. It sounds amateur because it doesn't outlined the harmony which is one of the 2 important roles a bass player should fill when playing.


Sly

[MalcolmAmos]

Here is a string that I feel is pretty good. It's over 34 posts long so print it off and get a comfortable chair and start reading.

http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/...ad.php?t=14167

You asked:

Originally Posted by Bootzilla

So why are all instructional guys making such a fuzz about modes and their sounds? Is there more to modes than I think there is?

We enjoy making modes complicated, they are really very simple, depending on the music you play they may or may not be all that important. In Country if you asked an old time lead guitarist what a mode is most could not answer that question. Now play 1,000 melodies by ear from memory most could. Even if he has not heard the song before by the time the song gets to the lead break he will be able to fake a 24 bar solo - he will not call it playing modes, but, that is probably what he ends up doing. In old classic Country improvisation does not enter the picture. Lead work is all memory and playing by ear. The major or natural minor scale accomplishes this quite well.

I do agree with the last post that modes will give you that little something extra that can be incorporated into your lead breaks.

I also understand what you said about the 4th chord and the 4th mode. Yep, some see it that way.
I chord C major Ionian
ii chord Dm minor Dorian
iii Chord Em minor Phrygian
IV Chord F major Lydian
V Chord G or G7 Major Mixolydian, etc. etc.

Good luck

[Bootzilla]

Thanks guys I'm glad I asked this question.

[slybass3000]

I forgot to mention that diatonic modes are extremely helpful to connect two chords together and giving a sense of strenght in harmony in a bassline not just for soloing.

Sly

[Bootzilla]

I have read some threads and I still think that I was correct in that the IV is constructed from the 4th mode and this is how you can use modes (or just use the key the song is in because it is diatonic although the notes have a different role).

The only other thing I found is using parallel modes or pitch axis (where the root or tonic stays the same but the scale changes). This can be used for slight variations but these notes that are not in the key of the song but come from a parallel mode often don't suggest the use of different mode but will just sound like a chromatic or something bluesy.

[Richard Lindsey]

I would say that with diatonic or mostly diatonic progressions in a more or less functional harmonic context--note the qualifiers--you hardly need to bother with modes at all. You can, for example, analyze Bach or Mozart, or Hank Williams for that matter, quite well without once referencing modes.

In that kind of context, thinking in terms of a mode for every chord gives you little if anything that you don't get from (a) knowing your chord tones and (b) knowing the prevailing key or modality that you're in at the moment.

Suppose, for example, that you're asked to play a Dm7 G7 C in the key of C. When you get to the Dm7, you know (a) that your chord notes are D F A C and (b) that, since the key of C contains C D E F G A B, the other "in-key" notes (besides the components of the Dm7) available for use as passing or color notes, if desired, are E G B. So if you want to move stepwise from the root D down to the root of the next chord, G7, if you want to remain in key, you're not going to go D C# Bb Ab G, you'll probably do something more like D C B A G. None of this requires you to think about one-mode-for-each-chord at all. It does require you, however, to know what harmonic space you're inhabiting at any given time, because this can change over the course of a piece. It doesn't always--a lot of great songs have been written with just I IV V--but it can.

Note that there's a lot of music that doesn't strictly follow the "rules" of Western functional harmony. That stuff is generally approached differently. There are tunes--like perhaps some of the pitch axis-based music MalcolmAmos referenced in another thread--that may in fact be best approached with one mode/key per chord. And it's possible to superimpose all sorts of abstruse harmonies over some simple chords, as some jazz will show you.

There's much more to this stuff, but I'm a big fan of the idea that complexity shouldn't be multiplied needlessly. The basic point I'm making is that the way modes are taught often complicates matters rather than clarifying them. I don't think they're particularly helpful or useful for diatonic navigation within functional harmony, not when simpler and more elegant explanations are available.

[PlanetEarth]

Originally Posted by Bootzilla

I have read some threads and I still think that I was correct in that the IV is constructed from the 4th mode and this is how you can use modes (or just use the key the song is in because it is diatonic although the notes have a different role).

Look at it this way, if you play all the notes in Cmaj but start and end on F, then again using F as the root build a tertiary structure on top of it i.e. 'ace' what you end up with is Fmaj7 (IVmaj7) and a lydian mode (or a major scale with an augmented 4th).

Originally Posted by Bootzilla

The only other thing I found is using parallel modes or pitch axis (where the root or tonic stays the same but the scale changes). This can be used for slight variations but these notes that are not in the key of the song but come from a parallel mode often don't suggest the use of different mode but will just sound like a chromatic or something bluesy.

IMHO, guitar player mumbo jumbo. A change from Cmaj to C-, can be a lot of things, according to the *pitch axis* theory this could mean ionian to aeolian - it could also mean lydian to dorian. Bla bla bla....

For learning purposes perhaps this creates a useful visual theory to go by, in application however a C-7 chord in the key of Cmaj. could be functioning as a bunch of different things depending on the context/cadence/melody, etc. etc. etc.

Kinda a half/baked concept IMO, but again, if it puts a theoretical methodology around it that serves as a good learning aid....

-PE

[Bootzilla]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

I would say that with diatonic or mostly diatonic progressions in a more or less functional harmonic context--note the qualifiers--you hardly need to bother with modes at all. You can, for example, analyze Bach or Mozart, or Hank Williams for that matter, quite well without once referencing modes.

In that kind of context, thinking in terms of a mode for every chord gives you little if anything that you don't get from (a) knowing your chord tones and (b) knowing the prevailing key or modality that you're in at the moment.

Suppose, for example, that you're asked to play a Dm7 G7 C in the key of C. When you get to the Dm7, you know (a) that your chord notes are D F A C and (b) that, since the key of C contains C D E F G A B, the other "in-key" notes (besides the components of the Dm7) available for use as passing or color notes, if desired, are E G B. So if you want to move stepwise from the root D down to the root of the next chord, G7, if you want to remain in key, you're not going to go D C# Bb Ab G, you'll probably do something more like D C B A G. None of this requires you to think about one-mode-for-each-chord at all. It does require you, however, to know what harmonic space you're inhabiting at any given time, because this can change over the course of a piece. It doesn't always--a lot of great songs have been written with just I IV V--but it can.

Note that there's a lot of music that doesn't strictly follow the "rules" of Western functional harmony. That stuff is generally approached differently. There are tunes--like perhaps some of the pitch axis-based music MalcolmAmos referenced in another thread--that may in fact be best approached with one mode/key per chord. And it's possible to superimpose all sorts of abstruse harmonies over some simple chords, as some jazz will show you.

There's much more to this stuff, but I'm a big fan of the idea that complexity shouldn't be multiplied needlessly. The basic point I'm making is that the way modes are taught often complicates matters rather than clarifying them. I don't think they're particularly helpful or useful for diatonic navigation within functional harmony, not when simpler and more elegant explanations are available.

Yes I was talking about diatonic pregressions. I know realize how you could use modes on non diatonic progressions. Thanks for the response.

[Rudreax]

I wouldn't try a lot of guitar instructional material (books and videos) from the past couple decades. A lot of it was made by people who honestly have no clue what they were talking about.

If anything, find people from the present to ask about it, as you did with this topic. Also, not to belittle guitarists or anything, but if you want solid musical knowledge about any subject I'd be VERY wary to learn from a guitarist unless you were totally sure that the person in question definitely has an idea about the subject.

[Bootzilla]

Originally Posted by Rudreax

I wouldn't try a lot of guitar instructional material (books and videos) from the past couple decades. A lot of it was made by people who honestly have no clue what they were talking about.

If anything, find people from the present to ask about it, as you did with this topic. Also, not to belittle guitarists or anything, but if you want solid musical knowledge about any subject I'd be VERY wary to learn from a guitarist unless you were totally sure that the person in question definitely has an idea about the subject.

I know, I don't pay attention to them. I mostly follow the chords and use chromatics and sometimes key notes. Mostly I just try to follow my ear and try to feel what sounds good. I don't want to know more about modes so I can do crazy solo's on bass but just to enhance my knowledge on theory. I have not once felt the need to think about modes while improvising or comping but I thought that if so many guitarists go crazy about them there might have been something important I have missed.

[varunkapahi]

no you dont! but niether do i really, but i tend to look at modes like each mode has a distinct "sounds/feel" and thats how i try to use them

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by Bootzilla

I know, I don't pay attention to them. I mostly follow the chords and use chromatics and sometimes key notes. Mostly I just try to follow my ear and try to feel what sounds good. I don't want to know more about modes so I can do crazy solo's on bass but just to enhance my knowledge on theory. I have not once felt the need to think about modes while improvising or comping but I thought that if so many guitarists go crazy about them there might have been something important I have missed.

How about for playing the right notes?

Sly

[not_jason]

As usual, forgive me if the things I say are in direct contradiction of fact. I'm self taught.

For me, modes are useful in improvisation because they provide a more focused way of thinking about the notes you're playing. If I'm playing on the fourth chord of the key, and I want to do something melodic, it's much easier, and more functional, for me if I think of myself as playing in a mode rooted on the fourth note of the scale. If I had to simply relate everything back to the general key of the song, it would greatly hinder my ability to think on the fly, and it wouldn't encourage some of the more creative things that I think modes can be used for.

[JTE]

Originally Posted by Bootzilla

My idea of modes was that you have a key the song is in and then when the fourth chord of that key is played you use the fourth mode of the key for the melody...

There's the problem. If the song is in a diatonic key, there's not only no real utility in thinking of modes (i.e. the common way they're taught is "use Ionian for the I, Dorian for the ii", etc.), but it directly moves you away from a key concept. If you're thinking a different mode for each chord, you're obliterating why they're all in the same key anyway. Use the scale for the key for your passing notes, and use your chord tones as primary targets.

John

[PlanetEarth]

Originally Posted by slybass3000

How about for playing the right notes?

What defines a "right note"? I personally find cheese disgusting, others love it.... Hopefully we're not implying a "right note" as one being diatonic to the compositions key signature....

A right note is one that lends itself to the music, it's got nothing to do with modes and more to do with the context of the music and equally if not more so the execution and way it's phrased.

It's important knowledge - but only as a means to an end. Like learning to read a language and understanding a language. You learn to read/write as a young child, how you use that info becomes a very individual thing subsequently - A good thing otherwise all the books we read would appear as if they were from the same author. We learn to read and we now have access to all the information written in that language enabling us to study the writings and information written by others, same thing here.

A couple loose quotes from a former teacher and great player:

"Melody is like a women's body and harmony is her dress and make-up. Depending on how you harmonize a melody the difference can be like night and day!"

Time is, "...two different things. There is one called absolute time which is the space between two points. It's like the space between two stars in the universe. In space we measure distance by how long it takes to get from one point to another. This time is absolute, 60 seconds in a minute right? Time feel is an interpretation of the space between these two stars, or between points A and B. If you look at points A and B as 7am and 7pm then the space between them is filled with the events of that day. These events can be of infinite quantity. What happens between two quarter notes is the same thing. How you fill that space creates your own personal feel, and is variable, but those two points are absolute"

-PE

[LaklandBass]

Ask yourself this....
If theory and modes say that a note is correct but it doesnt sound good in your song.... will you still use it?

Theory and modes and all that good stuff are awesome for one thing. Being able to jam on the fly and compose things quickly. Its a great tool to be able to communicate what youre writing or playing with other people.