Do notes exist between sharps/flats and naturals?

[RyRob813]

I've thought about this for a while, and I was curious if anyone else has-

When tuning an instrument, you can get a certain point where it's not quite flat or sharp, but not quite on pitch either...

So I wonder if any musicians have ever experimented with notes that technically don't exist? thoughts?

[sandmangeck]

before everything was tuned to perfect fifths, orchestras tuned in fourths, or other tunings, with fretless off tunings you can hit the notes in between. most consider them "wrong" notes now because weve tuned in perfect fifths for so long that they dont register as a "right note". a good book in reference to this is "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony: And Why You Should Care
by Ross W. Duffin" an excerpt is "From the Publisher
A captivating look at how musical temperament evolved, and how we could (and perhaps should) be tuning differently today.
Ross W. Duffin presents an engaging and elegantly reasoned expose of musical temperament and its impact on the way in which we experience music. A historical narrative, a music theory lesson, and, above all, an impassioned letter to musicians and listeners everywhere, How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony possesses the power to redefine the very nature of our interactions with music today.

For nearly a century, equal temperament--the practice of dividing an octave into twelve equally proportioned half-steps--has held a virtual monopoly on the way in which instruments are tuned and played. In his new book, Duffin explains how we came to rely exclusively on equal temperament by charting the fascinating evolution of tuning through the ages. Along the way, he challenges the widely held belief that equal temperament is a perfect, "naturally selected" musical system, and proposes a radical reevaluation of how we play and hear music."
i hope this helped.

[RyRob813]

Originally Posted by sandmangeck

before everything was tuned to perfect fifths, orchestras tuned in fourths, or other tunings, with fretless off tunings you can hit the notes in between. most consider them "wrong" notes now because weve tuned in perfect fifths for so long that they dont register as a "right note". a good book in reference to this is "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony: And Why You Should Care
by Ross W. Duffin" an excerpt is "From the Publisher
A captivating look at how musical temperament evolved, and how we could (and perhaps should) be tuning differently today.
Ross W. Duffin presents an engaging and elegantly reasoned expose of musical temperament and its impact on the way in which we experience music. A historical narrative, a music theory lesson, and, above all, an impassioned letter to musicians and listeners everywhere, How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony possesses the power to redefine the very nature of our interactions with music today.

For nearly a century, equal temperament--the practice of dividing an octave into twelve equally proportioned half-steps--has held a virtual monopoly on the way in which instruments are tuned and played. In his new book, Duffin explains how we came to rely exclusively on equal temperament by charting the fascinating evolution of tuning through the ages. Along the way, he challenges the widely held belief that equal temperament is a perfect, "naturally selected" musical system, and proposes a radical reevaluation of how we play and hear music."
i hope this helped.

Hey thanks I'll check that out. It is a very interesting thought I must say.

[Chrix]

Also, many modern "Classical" (for lack of a better term) musical practices, as well as many world musics employ the use of quarter-tones or semi-tones, meaning that place in between a half step. Fun stuff.

[theshadow2001]

Originally Posted by RyRob813

So I wonder if any musicians have ever experimented with notes that technically don't exist? thoughts?

Most fretless players do on a daily basis

[lowerclef]

There's a big thread on it here: Why are there no notes between b/c and e/f ?

There are lots of notes "in-between" piano notes. Sometimes a matter of different temperaments as described above, sometimes used integrally in the music itself, such as microtonal and world music.

[Nedmundo]

I recall reading an article in the 1980's about American composers using so-called "micro-tones," with which an octave was divided into more than 13 tones. I believe this was electronic music, but I'm not sure. I was curious and wanted to check it out, but never did. So yes, it's been done.

[Dave Grossman]

http://www.parnasse.com/jh/blog/microtonal-index.html

Check out the Acid Bach at the bottom of the page.

- Dave

[Chrix]

Originally Posted by Nedmundo

I recall reading an article in the 1980's about American composers using so-called "micro-tones," with which an octave was divided into more than 13 tones. I believe this was electronic music, but I'm not sure. I was curious and wanted to check it out, but never did. So yes, it's been done.

Search for the name Harry Partch. I believe that this is the cat you're thinking of. He also created keyboards that would play this scale, as well as other instruments, many which can be played virtually on a few of the websites you'll find.

[Mark Wilson]

Originally Posted by sandmangeck

before everything was tuned to perfect fifths, orchestras tuned in fourths, or other tunings, with fretless off tunings you can hit the notes in between. most consider them "wrong" notes now because weve tuned in perfect fifths for so long that they dont register as a "right note". a good book in reference to this is "How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony: And Why You Should Care
by Ross W. Duffin" an excerpt is "From the Publisher
A captivating look at how musical temperament evolved, and how we could (and perhaps should) be tuning differently today.
Ross W. Duffin presents an engaging and elegantly reasoned expose of musical temperament and its impact on the way in which we experience music. A historical narrative, a music theory lesson, and, above all, an impassioned letter to musicians and listeners everywhere, How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony possesses the power to redefine the very nature of our interactions with music today.

For nearly a century, equal temperament--the practice of dividing an octave into twelve equally proportioned half-steps--has held a virtual monopoly on the way in which instruments are tuned and played. In his new book, Duffin explains how we came to rely exclusively on equal temperament by charting the fascinating evolution of tuning through the ages. Along the way, he challenges the widely held belief that equal temperament is a perfect, "naturally selected" musical system, and proposes a radical reevaluation of how we play and hear music."
i hope this helped.

Uh...I don't know about you, but I tune in 4ths.

[Mark Wilson]

Microtonal Bass.

[lemur821]

Originally Posted by Chrix

Search for the name Harry Partch. I believe that this is the cat you're thinking of.

It really could have been anybody. There are lots of American microtonalists.

[slapslappopslap]

Originally Posted by Mark Wilson

Microtonal Bass.

wow. just wow.

[soong]

Originally Posted by Mark Wilson

Microtonal Bass.

umm, explain someone?

[hunta]

Originally Posted by I Suck At Bass

umm, explain someone?

Heck if I know... Play twinkle twinkle on that thing, I dare you!!!

[lemur821]

Originally Posted by I Suck At Bass

umm, explain someone?

It's a bass fretted to play in a just intonation scale using what looks like 23 notes to the octave. Cons: more frets than your bass. Pros: that bass can be played in tune.

[BetterBottomEnd]

Quarter steps are actually relatively common in some eastern music and to their ears sound perfectly normal.

[hbarcat]

I saw a video demo/documentary on traditional Indian music that is played with the addition of three "extra notes" that exist between each note of our "normal" twelve note scale. For example, if you start at A then you'd go up a fraction to A' then to A'' then to A''' before getting to the B flat. The musician playing the sitar on the demo played the same piece several different times but each time changed which of the microtones he was emphasizing and it dramatically changed the way the song sounded.

[uethanian]

sandmangeck - maybe referring to the circle of fifths? not making too much sense though, a fourth is just the inverse of a fifth, so it wouldn't make any difference in terms of temperament. and i think i'll check out that book.

mark wilson - hansford rowe's warwick, it has to be! where are u getting those pictures anyways?

hbarcat - close but not quite. the indian scale has a possible 22 notes, thats about 3 for each note in our diatonic scale, but not chromatic. essentially they're only using 7 notes at any given time.

betterbottomend - i think its a little misleading to use the term 'quarter tones' for eastern music...most eastern music is justly tuned, so those 'tones between half tones' wouldn't be spaced equally.

for equal temperament, there's always 19 tone, which to me sounds so much better. or even 31 (or was it 32?). besides that, just intonation systems give a limitless number of tones (i mean this relative to equal temperament, where only certain #'s of tones sound good).

well i kindof feel like a jerk. let me apologize, this is my favorite part of music, and im always geeking out.

[figuredbass]

The "blue" note is perhaps the best example of an "in between note" or quarter-tone in common everyday use in the music we are familiar with: the blues, blues based rock and roll, and jazz. It occurs as an interval halfway between a minor third and a major third from either (1) the root note of the chord being considered or (2) the tonic note of the scale being considered. From the note C for example, the blue note would exist halfway between an Eb and an E natural, literally the quarter-tone in between them. Guitars, voices, etc. obviously have no problem playing this very cool twilight zone pitch, but on rigid pitch-fixed instruments such as an acoustic piano, it can only be fudged by either playing a grace note on the minor to the major third, or by playing both those notes simultaneously.