Do Re Mi (Music For Dummies)

[BOOCAKE4U]

holy crap...i just had something of a revelation

let me start by saying that my theory is seriously lacking, which will probably be completely obvious to you momentarily...other than the public school music classes back when i was a kid (which i have forgotten, more or less), nobody ever really explained the system to me and i never bothered to pursue it, even after buying my first bass thirteen freaking years ago (yes, i am just that stupid)...i watched a couple tapes and got in way over my head with fancy books (including victors, what was i thinking?? haha) and kinda gave up/lost interest because i had no idea what i was doing and would get totally frustrated...

so now i am trying to get serious, i have much better resources (thanks to bob dole for the webbernet) and i have to know how things WORK to be able to understand them and obviously music is no different...thanks to TB (and to a lesser degree, the flea video i first saw back in 92 or so, have watched literally thousands of times since, and ignored the important parts anyway), i now know that its a really good idea to SING THE NOTES YOU ARE PLAYING (or want to play)...i sure wish somebody had punched me in the face back then and made me repeat it until it sank in...

ok, now for the meat...i have been a good little boy, trying to learn and practice all my scales, and have been singing along with the major scale...but i didn't know what words to sing for the minor scale (or any of the others), so i was about to post a dumb question in this very forum asking...then a quick google for "do re mi minor" yielded the following page: (my fellow n00bs need to bookmark this)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solfege

i saw that chart and it just CLICKED...i have been reading the names of these intervals without even understanding what they really mean (i told you i am stupid) and now i finally get it...degrees of the damn SCALE...LOOK MOM, I CAN COUNT TO EIGHT

i feel like such an idiot, but at the same time i just caught a glimpse of the proverbial forest (much easier to see without quite so many trees in the way) and i think i know where to go from here: (please feel free to correct me or offer advice)

1. learn the rest of my scales (melodic this and pentatonic that) and modes (the "bass for dummies" book finally made modes make sense, it's just a scale that starts on the second degree, or the third degree, or whichever, and WRAPS AROUND to the octave of that degree)

2. learn all my intervals, which should be considerably easier since i now know there are WORDS that go with them...i know about WORDS, i can memorize and remember WORDS, i use WORDS almost every day (!!)...(by the way, the musictheory.net interval ear training exercise is good, but there needs to be a bass version and i think i will make one..or does activebass.com have one? i just registered and their site is being difficult)

3. worry about chord structure and arpeggios (i'm going to ponder the hell out of this stuff tonight, or try to)

4. learn to read

if there is anything obvious i missed there, please beat it into my head, and don't worry about insulting my intelligence

hopefully this won't take another thirteen years...i have some decent equipment now, i'm motivated and have a wee bit more discipline than i used to, and i have you guys to keep me company (and keep my interest up)...so, THANK YOU for being here, and reading this rambling gibberish...wish me luck

[Correlli]

I know Transcribing is popular here at TB, but Sight Singing is by far [a-more] efficient and effective means of aural training.

Soon you'll be able to pick out key notes of any song you hear, without using an instrument.

A good book on sight singing - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/039...lance&n=283155


Good one!

[BOOCAKE4U]

thank you for the reply...

i read through the descriptions of the book, the others like it, and the reviews of all of them, and i'm not sure i am quite ready for something like that yet...i gather that the basic idea is to tie in something that is more or less instinctive for most people (singing) and make an association between that and written music, for people who can't yet read music...the problem i have with that is that i don't think i am much of a singer, or at least i'm not comfortable enough with my own singing skills to be confident with such an approach...

basically what i am trying to do is internalize the notes that i am playing, and create that connection between the stuff i can make up in my head, and having it come out of my fingers...but i think a big part of that will be understanding what i am making up in the first place, as regards the relationship of the notes to one another (intervals), and how they work as parts of a whole (key and chord tones)...like right now, i have the meters "tippi toes" running through my head, but i don't have the first idea how to play it on my bass...i think if i knew what key it was in, and what the chord progressions were, i would be a lot closer to having that lightbulb over my head go off and being able to say "well, heres what they are doing with that line"...so i think the key to that is to be familiar with the words, so i can put them together the right way and make the sentences (if that makes any sense)...

but i will certainly consider this sight-singing deal when i get a little closer to that point (some of the reviews make it sound difficult for anybody who isn't a natural born singer)...i am hoping that this stuff i am yammering about will also improve my singing abilities (i think my problem there is more confidence than tone-deafness, as i can sing pretty well when no one is listening..hehe)

i am slowly working my way towards understanding how it all fits together...i think i am getting a grasp on how the chord tones make up the chords, and what those silly names mean...so i think i will take my notebook to work tomorrow and draw all this stuff out, since i am now realizing that a lot of these special case scales (pentatonic, melodic and harmonic minor) are just cut down or modified versions of the stuff i already know (blues scale, minor scale)...and i know now that an arpeggio is just chord tones over two octaves, and since the chord tones come from out of the scales..........

hey, this music stuff is pretty neat...making my head hurt though

thanks for listening (reading) to me talk (write) to myself, it's helping me immensely...i think the next big thing i need to think about is how one arrives at which notes to play based upon which part of the chord progression one finds oneself in, and stuff...i was reading a little about it earlier here on TB, maybe i will review that briefly then relax with some tuneage...

edit:

here are the threads i was thinking of, i'm just gonna set them here for right now so i don't lose track/forget

Nagging Basic Theory Question
Solos sound too much like... scales.


couple more useful thingies

Chord Numbers
Which mode with which chord?
My bass cheat sheet

[JohnBarr]

Fun, isn't it?

[steveb98]

I would say don't try to take too big a bite, pace yourself. The diatonic harmory of the major scale can keep you busy for awhile. Learn get down the major scale, the chords from the harmonized major scale, intervals in the major scale. arpeggios of those chords. Practice playing, singing, and learning to hear them (ear training.) That is a lot, but once you feel confident with it, then other scale are simple because you can use the major scale as your reference point.

Things to do to help it make sense is start singing the bass lines you know already. Figure out what intervals they are using. How do your bass lines relate to the major scale. The key is being able to relate the theory to what you are doing so it become your communication tool. Yes, transcibe bass lines, by learning to sing them first. Then break it down to intervals and slowly piece the line together. This will train your ear, but also where those intervals are on your instrument. Long term goal is to be able to play what you hear in your head as quick as you think of it. To play something you hear as quickly. Same with chord and chord progressions.

It is a slowly process in the beginning, but once some of the pieces come together it gets faster and faster. Sing what you play, play what you sing.

[Correlli]

One thing to keep in mind about Sight Singing, is that it's not the quality of the voice that matters, but 'getting' the correct pitch. You can hum the notes if you want to.

[Kruton]

Originally Posted by BOOCAKE4U

so now i am trying to get serious, i have much better resources (thanks to bob dole for the webbernet) and i have to know how things WORK to be able to understand them and obviously music is no different...thanks to TB (and to a lesser degree, the flea video i first saw back in 92 or so, have watched literally thousands of times since, and ignored the important parts anyway), i now know that its a really good idea to SING THE NOTES YOU ARE PLAYING (or want to play)...i sure wish somebody had punched me in the face back then and made me repeat it until it sank in...

It is now a well known fact that Al Gore invented the Internet. Come on, get your facts straight! Al Gore is a Good Guy. He is now spreading awareness about Manbearpig (half man, half bear, and half pig).

[SundanceChile]

Originally Posted by Kiwi Kid

One thing to keep in mind about Sight Singing, is that it's not the quality of the voice that matters, but 'getting' the correct pitch. You can hum the notes if you want to.

Indeed. First semester of college musicianship.

*teacher walks in. plays three chords on the piano*
Alright guys, sing along to what I'm playing.
*class falls silent*

What a wake up into solfege eh? I must admit though, it is a WONDERFUL skill to have when playing any kind of instrument.

[BOOCAKE4U]

thank you for the awesome advice guys, it's really appreciated (especially you, steveb)...kruton, you have too much garlic, you coat my mouth with oily residue, and you make my burps taste funny for hours...but damn if you don't complement that caesar dressing perfectly!

i accomplished nothing today musically (who invented this "work" crap anyway?), but i have a couple hours left

[Correlli]

Originally Posted by FretlessFreak

sing along to what I'm playing.

could've been Mozart's very first lesson?

[BOOCAKE4U]

hello dear friends, it's me again, and i have a stupid question

i was just working on my little bass notebook, drawing out various scale patterns (major, minor, melodic and harmonic minor etc) and labelling each degree within said scales with various pertinent information (fingering, the name of the interval and the solfege syllable) with the aid of my "bass g****r for dummies" book (which is quite helpful, although he glosses over important stuff more than i would like), when i happened to notice the following page:



this is page 41 of the book, and is prefaced by the heading "Identifying intervals: They're always in the same place"...what i don't get here is how the minor 2nd in the diagram is only one half step/semitone away from the root, when this does not occur in the minor scale...and furthermore, how is there a difference between a minor 2nd and a major 2nd, when they are both one whole step away from the root in their respective scales?

thanks in advance for any assistance, this is making my brain bleed...

[thumbzilla]

"Minor" can also mean "flatted". The "second" is the second note of the scale. I have the same book. Re-read the section on minor scales. When you see the difference between major and minor scales you will have another light bulb event.

[tbone0813]

Originally Posted by BOOCAKE4U

hello dear friends, it's me again, and i have a stupid question

i was just working on my little bass notebook, drawing out various scale patterns (major, minor, melodic and harmonic minor etc) and labelling each degree within said scales with various pertinent information (fingering, the name of the interval and the solfege syllable) with the aid of my "bass g****r for dummies" book (which is quite helpful, although he glosses over important stuff more than i would like), when i happened to notice the following page:



this is page 41 of the book, and is prefaced by the heading "Identifying intervals: They're always in the same place"...what i don't get here is how the minor 2nd in the diagram is only one half step/semitone away from the root, when this does not occur in the minor scale...and furthermore, how is there a difference between a minor 2nd and a major 2nd, when they are both one whole step away from the root in their respective scales?

thanks in advance for any assistance, this is making my brain bleed...

The Minor & Major scale both have a 'Major 2nd'. The 'Minor 2nd' is a note that is a half step below the 'Major 2nd'. You'll find the 'Minor 2nd' in the Phrygian & Locrian scales.

[BOOCAKE4U]

thank you brothers, it's greatly appreciated...having had time to sleep on it, i feel a little silly

Originally Posted by thumbzilla

"Minor" can also mean "flatted". The "second" is the second note of the scale. I have the same book. Re-read the section on minor scales. When you see the difference between major and minor scales you will have another light bulb event.

hehe, "lightbulb event", i like that (it wants to be a song title someday)...i think i got it, a minor scale is a major scale with flatted 3rd, 6th and 7th...you start flatting more stuff and you get other things (flat the 2nd and get phrygian mode, flat the 2nd and the 7th (again) and get locrian mode)...do i have it?

Originally Posted by tbone0813

The Minor & Major scale both have a 'Major 2nd'. The 'Minor 2nd' is a note that is a half step below the 'Major 2nd'. You'll find the 'Minor 2nd' in the Phrygian & Locrian scales.

i see now that i was just blindly calling the interval a minor second because it was the second degree in a minor scale, instead of really paying attention to what i was doing and realizing both major and minor scales have the same second degree...i will have to be more careful from now on, darn tricky intervals (shakes fist), what really messed me up was all the other minor intervals on that page in the book correspond to the degrees in a minor scale (the 3rd, 6th and 7th), i just could not get my brain around it last night...

diagramming it all out is definitely helping me, especially when i label the little guys with their solfege names and their intervals...really makes it obvious how one thing is derived from another thing, and on and on down the musical hierarchy...good stuff

so far i have done the major scale (including the E and A troublemakers) and minor scale (likewise) in both one and two octaves, melodic minor, harmonic minor, blues and pentatonic, and all the modes...all with each degree labelled with it's interval and solfege name, what it REALLY is as a whole ("dorian = minor with major 6th" etc), fingering and position shifts when necessary...i think i am going to use colo(U)r on top of the two octave scales to illustrate the chord tones/arpeggios...then it will be time for more dumb questions! actually, i have another one already...

i'm not sure what to call the various degrees of the two octave scales after you pass the first octave, i know there is a 9th and 13th and so on, but i'm unsure what corresponds to what...i would ASSUME the 9th is that first degree after the octave as that seems fairly obvious, and i know the second octave is still just an octave, but that leaves 5 notes i can't account for (as far as their intervallic names anyway)...any input?

thanks again fellers, hopefully someday i can do for someone else what you have done for me, and if there is anything i can do for you, you only have to name it...now i am going to run to the store for some markers and a binder and maybe some of those plastic slipcover thingies, i got work to do!

[labgnat]

Originally Posted by BOOCAKE4U

i'm not sure what to call the various degrees of the two octave scales after you pass the first octave, i know there is a 9th and 13th and so on, but i'm unsure what corresponds to what...i would ASSUME the 9th is that first degree after the octave as that seems fairly obvious, and i know the second octave is still just an octave, but that leaves 5 notes i can't account for (as far as their intervallic names anyway)...any input?

i'm not 100% sure i understand ur question completely. but here goes. scale degrees can be figured out by adding or subtracting 7

root of a scale is scale interval 1. octave is 8
1=8
2=9
3=10
4=11
5=12
6=13
7=14

so if you're playing a major triad in the key of C (or any key) you could use the 10th instead of the normal 3rd you'd use, cause the 10th is just an octave higher.

[BOOCAKE4U]

that is exactly what i needed, great explanation...thank you

[BOOCAKE4U]

a wee update...(i realize that probably nobody really cares, but i guess i'm treating this as my journal/blog, and maybe it will help somebody down the road, especially if i can shuffle it into some semblance of organization later)

what i've been doing the past week:

practicing with my drum machine...i see why this is so important, it really shows you how much time there actually is between the beats (and how subjective your own sense of time is)

^with my crappiest bass...when i can make a pawnshop chinese squier with decroded five year old chunky roundwounds sound really good, then i will truly deserve the nice ones that i own...(keeping a careful eye on my geometry and i have noticed a major reduction in string noise, since i can lift off the string straight rather than at an angle)

^ doing lots of popping and sliding (my calluses are coming along quite nicely, i had to TB most of the day yesterday for fear of blistering up)

^strengthening my hands as well as my fingerstyle technique...i have always used the one finger "jamerson/da hook" style (unknowingly), so now i am trying to consciously integrate 2 and 3 finger skillz, for great justice

^ handicapping myself in various ways (playing only with my left (fretting) hand (thanks to bill clements for that) to increase finesse, playing only with my right thumb (sideways plucking, not slapping) and only with my right ring finger (building up it's callus) - both of those last two were because my fingies were hurting

^experimenting in general - just sliding around the board, making odd noises and seeing what goes with what, trying to avoid playing more than two notes on the same string or playing an open string in general...it really seems to help when i can loosen up and just mess around without worrying about formalities...i am getting the impression that it's more a matter of the few notes that you should NOT use, rather than the many you can

stuff i need to continue to work on:

memorizing my chord tones
working on my solfege
understanding the "bass cheat sheet" (specifically, the patterns that link across the fretboard)
play around with chord changes (a simple 3 to 5 note line that moves through the changes, to get me used to shifting positions cleanly)
improve my ear training by working out the stuff that i know by heart (motifs and standards) and seeing where it is coming from


i have noticed that i am becoming more analytical when listening to music, at least as far as really noticing chord changes and such...not recognizing them (in the theory sense) so much as noticing when they are happening...and perhaps most importantly, i am really starting to see that the best lines (my favorites anyway) and even melodies are really SIMPLE...it's like seeing houdini stuffing doves in his jacket backstage

side note: i accidentally figured out the cream - "sunshine of your love" riff last week while playing around with the minor pentatonic, and i felt like the caveman who discovered fire...good times

[bass349]

Can i just say that it's really refreshing to see somebody so excited about learning! I wish my students were as focused and diligent as you....

Something i have learnt is to, as one of the bass lecturers at uni puts it, to "go for the win" in your practice routine. Basically meaning to get excited and accept the "wins" and accomplishments in your own playing progress. If you end a practice session with a win, when you come back to it you'll already have that positive attitute towards your progress. And it definately seems your doing this!

all the best,
Andy

[BOOCAKE4U]

thanks for the kind words and encouragement...your post is a good reminder to me about staying focused, in the sense of having specific things to work on, instead of just diddling around and rehashing the same crap (which i am frequently guilty of) or trying to skip ahead into something i am not ready for...

i feel like i am trying to make up for lost time, so i need to be that much more efficient to make the best use of the time i DO have (typically only an hour or two in the evening on working days)...of course it is incredibly easy to spend massive amounts of time on TB, but conversely, it's a great resource and good for staying inspired as well...everything in moderation i guess

and on that note, i think it's solfege time (i think my singing voice is improving as a result, go figger)

[Thursday]

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