Double Sharps/Flats for dummies

[Matt Till]

Could someone in simplistic terms give me a reason behind why something would be double sharped or double flatted. As opposed to being referred to by a more basic name.

F = D## ... why?

It's one that has always bugged me, but then again, there is so much about music I have very little understanding of.

[BruisedOoze]

Well a simple way to see why they come about is to look at your major scales. Find one that already has a sharp in it like G Major. The notes are

G A B C D E F#.

Now what about the G# Major scale? The notes are

G# A# B# C# D# E# F##.

Sure this note is exactly the same as G! But the next note in the scale follows alphabetically (mod G ). This is done because in music theory chords are structured in a logical way and ordered (Spelled?) a certain to be consistent within the theoretical framework.

In practical use you would see A flat being used in a composition ( All those sharp signs just make things harder to read and deal with). Often in composing the double sharp usually comes up when you want to sharpen a leading note into another note that is already sharp.

Hope that helps.

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by Matt Till

Could someone in simplistic terms give me a reason behind why something would be double sharped or double flatted. As opposed to being referred to by a more basic name.

F = D## ... why?

It's one that has always bugged me, but then again, there is so much about music I have very little understanding of.

Dx (double sharp) = E, not F

Double sharps and flats exist because the rules established by diatonic music theory predict them.

Like the example above, G major (or any major scale for that matter) MUST have one of each of the notes from the diatonic alphabet used once, no more and no less, G A B C D E F# (g).

in G# major, one half step higher than the previous scale, all of the notes are raised one half step higher G# A# B# C# D# E# Fx (g#). You still must have one of each of the notes from the diatonic alphabet used once and only once, so that is why a double sharp comes into use.

[Matt Till]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

Dx (double sharp) = E, not F

Ha, so it is, I told you they confuse me.




I guess I "get it," but I really don't think music needs to be as complicated as it is.

[BruisedOoze]

Originally Posted by Matt Till

Ha, so it is, I told you they confuse me.




I guess I "get it," but I really don't think music needs to be as complicated as it is.

Well we kind of gave bad examples about how this comes up, jsut to give you a sense of how they come about. The key G# is never used as it has 8 sharps in it. One more than the number of notes.

However, things become more complicated especially in arranged pieces because certain instruments have particular keys to them. Because of that these instruments would not sound the same note when reading the same piece of music (The key of an instrument is defined by what note they give off when they play a written C). So whats end up happening when you need these instruments to play certain keys and notes you have to transpose the music. Or saying it a different way everything needs to be shifted a certain interval. And this can result in these double sharps in their written music. A smart transposer who is writing the music will choose the best key such that it presents the least number of double sharps or flats.

[AlphaMale]

Originally Posted by Matt Till

Could someone in simplistic terms give me a reason behind why something would be double sharped or double flatted. As opposed to being referred to by a more basic name.

F = D## ... why?

It's one that has always bugged me, but then again, there is so much about music I have very little understanding of.

Because they need to keep their diatonic name. (Letter name)

[DocBop]

They main get used in theory to explain scales and such. Scales shouldn't have two notes of same name so using double accidental make seeing the intervals between notes easier. Sometimes used in written music to make it easier to read. Lets say your reading some music and see a run of notes. Most sightreaders trying to recognize if it is a scale they know so they don't have to read each note. If you used enharmonic spellings it would be harder to recognize.

Double accidentals aren't confusing, they are just new to you. I see a D## and instantly know it's an enharmonic E on my instrument. Just something with time that your brain will juggle for you, without you even realizing it.

[mutedeity]

This reminds me of something else......

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by BruisedOoze

Well a simple way to see why they come about is to look at your major scales. Find one that already has a sharp in it like G Major. The notes are

G A B C D E F#.

Now what about the G# Major scale? The notes are

G# A# B# C# D# E# F##.

Sure this note is exactly the same as G! But the next note in the scale follows alphabetically (mod G ). This is done because in music theory chords are structured in a logical way and ordered (Spelled?) a certain to be consistent within the theoretical framework.

In practical use you would see A flat being used in a composition ( All those sharp signs just make things harder to read and deal with). Often in composing the double sharp usually comes up when you want to sharpen a leading note into another note that is already sharp.

Hope that helps.

I understand what you wanted to achieve here with your example but there is a big mistake : there is no such thing as a G# Major scale or tonality because you end up with double alteration in the key signature and this is not practical in music notation or theory,

Just wanted to clarify

SB

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by slybass3000

I understand what you wanted to achieve here with your example but there is a big mistake : there is no such thing as a G# Major scale or tonality because you end up with double alteration in the key signature and this is not practical in music notation or theory,

Just wanted to clarify

SB

I guess when Bach tonicizes G# major in his Fugue in C# major from the Well Tempered Clavier he was making a mistake. You should probably inform him of his error.

[CatfishStudios]

Simple really... the definition of a scale is one note on each space of the staff, cant skip a bar when writing out a scale.....in order to do this sometimes we use double sharps.

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

I guess when Bach tonicizes G# major in his Fugue in C# major from the Well Tempered Clavier he was making a mistake. You should probably inform him of his error.

What's wrong with writing it in Db?

[BassChuck]

Originally Posted by slybass3000

......there is no such thing as a G# Major scale or tonality because you end up with double alteration in the key signature and this is not practical in music notation or theory,

Just wanted to clarify

SB

Really? If I'm in theory class, and the the professor asks to write a major scale built on the leading tone to 'A'.... where do I start? If I start on Ab, I stand to be corrected because Ab is not the leading tone to A in any scale (except of course, Bbb... but then that has it's own problems.).

I do agree that in practice, it would be totally incorrect (read: stupid) to present a player with something in the key of G# major. But I do think that many academic musicians are OK with the theoretical key of G#.

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by EADG mx

What's wrong with writing it in Db?

Because he paired major and minor keys. A Prelude and Fugue in C major/minor, C# major/minor, D major/minor etc. I'd love to see somebody read down a fugue in Db minor with a tonicization of a key like Gb minor. Not practical.

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

Because he paired major and minor keys. A Prelude and Fugue in C major/minor, C# major/minor, D major/minor etc. I'd love to see somebody read down a fugue in Db minor with a tonicization of a key like Gb minor. Not practical.

I thought you said C# with tonicization of G#, so where do you get Gb from?

[Richard Lindsey]

I believe he's saying that Bach had to use C# minor rather than Db minor for reasons of practicality. Besides the fact that the key sig of Db minor would have 8 flats, trying to tonicize the iv of that key, which could easily be wanted and which would be Gb minor in this case, would be brutal to execute. So if C# minor was used for the minor component, the paired major key had to be C# major, because of the very design of the overall work.

[HaVIC5]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

I believe he's saying that Bach had to use C# minor rather than Db minor for reasons of practicality. Besides the fact that the key sig of Db minor would have 8 flats, trying to tonicize the iv of that key, which could easily be wanted and which would be Gb minor in this case, would be brutal to execute. So if C# minor was used for the minor component, the paired major key had to be C# major, because of the very design of the overall work.

Bam, that's it.

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by HaVIC5

I guess when Bach tonicizes G# major in his Fugue in C# major from the Well Tempered Clavier he was making a mistake. You should probably inform him of his error.

Again if you would take the time to read carefully, the given example referred to a G# Major scale which doesn't exist !!! Ab does.

As far as Bach which is probably one the greater composer of all time, he would use G#7 in C#, not G# major scale !!!


SB

[slybass3000]

Originally Posted by BassChuck

Really? If I'm in theory class, and the the professor asks to write a major scale built on the leading tone to 'A'.... where do I start? If I start on Ab, I stand to be corrected because Ab is not the leading tone to A in any scale (except of course, Bbb... but then that has it's own problems.).

I do agree that in practice, it would be totally incorrect (read: stupid) to present a player with something in the key of G# major. But I do think that many academic musicians are OK with the theoretical key of G#.

This is a good representation of all the Major and minor keys in all western music. There is no such thing as a G# major scale or key!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths

[funkydanbass]

Originally Posted by BruisedOoze

A smart transposer who is writing the music will choose the best key such that it presents the least number of double sharps or flats.

I would think that the range and timbre of the instruments used would take greater precedence over the ease of transposition.