Dumb question re: inversions

[Pablo Fanque]

OK, I apologize in advance for the ignorance of this. But this kind of confuses me and wanted to run it by y'all, the gods of music theory.

I'm learning inversions. Of course the starting examples are C major and C minor. The little examples of I had of inversion in C major was like E-G-C-E. Pretty sure it was laid out with the Root being C but not finishing on the octave

So why would that be C major inverted? Why wouldn't that be a chord in the E scale?

Maybe I'm not paying enough attention to the definitions of stuff.

Okay

C major is C, E, G if you play it root position.

If you invert it once (take the bottom note and play it at the top) you get the 1st inversion.

E, G, C

If you invert it again (take the bottom note and put it at the top) you get the 2nd inversion

G, C, E

If you're saying why isn't E-G-C-E named after the E, the answer is, it could be if you wanted to name it that way. That chord is more likely to be an inversion of C major, because to be an E major scale it would have to have a B, not a C. Normally whatever seems most obvious is most likely.

However, you could if you wanted notate E-G-C-E as Em6. You could also call it G6add4.

It's up to you which note is the root, but usually the music dictates that one is more likely than another. If you want to, you can name any collection of notes as if any of the chord tones is the root. However, in context, the piece of music will sort of dictate that one tone sounds good treated as the root, and another sounds terrible.

[Deacon_Blues]

Inversions determine which of the chord notes is the lowest one, the first, second, third etc. When the lowest note is not the root note, i.e .you play an inversion of the chord, you write out the chord in a different way, e.g. C major played as E-G-C would normally be written C/E (first inverison of C major). G-C-E would be written C/G (second inversion of C major)

Em+ (or Em+5 or Em#5) could perhaps be used as well to describe C/E if you're in the key of Em. However if the song is in C major and you want to play this chord, C/E is the best way to write it.

Edit: JTE pointed out the difference between inversion and voicing, which I wasn't aware of. Post hence corrected.

[Deacon_Blues]

Originally Posted by afromoose

However, you could if you wanted notate E-G-C-E as Em6. You could also call it G6add4.

Em6 contains the notes E-G-B-C#.

I also don't get why you'd call that G6add4... That would contain the notes G-B-C-D-E. G6sus4omit5/E would be better. State the bass note by using a slash chord if your lowest note is not the chord root note.

[Mikio]

because chords are ALWAYS the SAME chord

a C major needs "C E G (B)" [B = 7th], so, whenever you have those 3 [4] notes, you get a C major, the order DOESN'T MATTER, and the name of inversions go by the bass, it doesn't matter the order of the upper voices


example:

C major's first inversion: E G C

could also be: E C G, because the E is in the bass, thus Frist inversion

Second inversion: G C E or G E C

Third inversion: B C E G or or B C G E or B E G G or B E C G or B G C E or B G E C

lol

[kingbee]

In actual practice, the stacking of the notes above the lowest note isn't really relevant. What makes it an inversion is that bass is playing another chord tone and not the root.

So if you've got a guitar player vamping between G and C, if you just hang on the G the whole time, the G is the root of the first chord and the second inversion of the second chord.

[Deacon_Blues]

Mikio -- please keep in mind that a C chord contains only three notes (C-E-G) if nothing else is stated. You can't assume a 7th always fits into a chord. A C major 7 chord is written Cmaj7, Cma7 or CΔ7.

[Mikio]

Originally Posted by Deacon_Blues

Mikio -- please keep in mind that a C chord contains only three notes (C-E-G) if nothing else is stated. You can't assume a 7th always fits into a chord. A C major 7 chord is written Cmaj7, Cma7 or CΔ7.

yes, I know. I'm sorry I didn't give it's propper name.


kingbee: in actual practice is where it's more important, the sound of a chord in each inversion is WAY different.

Originally Posted by Deacon_Blues

Em6 contains the notes E-G-B-C#.

I also don't get why you'd call that G6add4... That would contain the notes G-B-C-D-E. G6sus4omit5/E would be better. State the bass note by using a slash chord if your lowest note is not the chord root note.

Yeah you're right, it would have to be Emb6

I think 6add4 or 6sus4 is okay - you don't always have to play the fifth. I think it depends on if you want to spell out precisely that that's the chord so somebody could play it, or if you're naming an existing chord that you've found.

My point was that any chord can be renamed from one of it's chord tones if you want to, and that it depends on where the root is perceived in the context of the music to dictate whether it's the root position of one chord or an inversion of another.

[Deacon_Blues]

Originally Posted by afromoose

Yeah you're right, it would have to be Emb6

I think 6add4 or 6sus4 is okay - you don't always have to play the fifth. I think it depends on if you want to spell out precisely that that's the chord so somebody could play it, or if you're naming an existing chord that you've found.

You're right you don't always have to play the fifth, it's often omitted, but if it is essential that the note should not be there, you need to note out that. Emb6 still contain a fifth unless you write "omit5" or "no5".

Originally Posted by afromoose

My point was that any chord can be renamed from one of it's chord tones if you want to, and that it depends on where the root is perceived in the context of the music to dictate whether it's the root position of one chord or an inversion of another.

This I agree in full with.

[Pablo Fanque]

So E-G-C is an inverted C major because E chord would have a B in there?

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by Pablo Fanque

So E-G-C is an inverted C major because E chord would have a B in there?

No. A C major triad is spelled C-E-G. If you put the E on the bottom (E-G-C) that is the same chord in first inversion. If you put the fifth on the bottom (G-C-E) that is second inversion.

The members of the chords are always referenced from root position, not where they fall within the inversion.

[Mikio]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

No. A C major triad is spelled C-E-G. If you put the E on the bottom (E-G-C) that is the same chord in first inversion. If you put the fifth on the bottom (G-C-E) that is second inversion.

The members of the chords are always referenced from root position, not where they fall within the inversion.

yep, as I said the chords have always the same notes

the E triad is E G B, so whenever you have those 3 notes in any order that's an E, and in this case we have E G C, which has the C triad notes, thus a C major in it's first inversion form

[Pablo Fanque]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

No. A C major triad is spelled C-E-G. If you put the E on the bottom (E-G-C) that is the same chord in first inversion. If you put the fifth on the bottom (G-C-E) that is second inversion.

The members of the chords are always referenced from root position, not where they fall within the inversion.

The root note is the note of the chord or scale, right? So why wouldn't the E in the E-G-C be the root for an E chord?

I'm going to have you people pulling your hair out trying to explain this to me.

Any chord can be renamed from one of it's chord tones if you want to, and it depends on where the root is perceived in the context of the music to dictate whether it's the root position of one chord or an inversion of another.

should have just written that only.

[JTE]

The C chord is the first, third, and fifth notes of the C major scale. No matter what order they're in, those three notes make a C chord by definition. If you put the E in the bass, it's still C E G functionally.

Now, look at E G C. Start with your E major scale, and you see that those notes in E are the 1, b3, and b6. So, it MIGHT be part of an Emin6, but there's no fifth in there at all, so it's kind of ambiguious. It'll work, but the point is that if you use Ocam's razor (look for the simplest explanation), it's a C major chord.

You also have to look at the chords in context. Just looking at a CEG combination all by itself no matter what inversion it's in, you need to learn to SEE that those three are C.

BTW, do NOT confuse "inversion" with "voicing'!!! "Inversion" simply means which note of the chord is the lowest voice. If the chord is played E G C C C G E or if it's played E C G, it's still first inversion. Those are very different voicings of the chord, but they're the same inversion.

Guitarist make this error a lot. They'll play three different voicings, all with the root at the bottom and talk about knowing different inversions. Yech!

jte

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Pablo Fanque

The root note is the note of the chord or scale, right? So why wouldn't the E in the E-G-C be the root for an E chord?

I'm going to have you people pulling your hair out trying to explain this to me.

Because the root of the chord and the lowest pitch actually sounded when that chord is played are NOT the same thing.

The root is the harmonic basis on which the chord is constructed, and this is true whether or not it's actually the lowest pitch being sounded at a given point. It often is, but it doesn't have to be, and that's why inversions are possible.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by afromoose

Any chord can be renamed from one of it's chord tones if you want to

But not necessarily with equal plausibility or sense.

[Deacon_Blues]

Originally Posted by Mikio

the E minor triad is E G B, so whenever you have those 3 notes in any order that's an E minor (Em), and in this case we have E G C, which has the C triad notes, thus a C major in it's first inversion form

Added a couple of words to add clarity to this post.


Everyone, please check the sticky by John Turner in this forum. Thanks JTE for the clarification of the difference between voicing and inversion, I corrected my first post here accordingly. I thought I knew this....

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

But not necessarily with equal plausibility or sense.

Do you read entire sentences?