Ear traning and age

[carlthegroover]

Hey, TB folks. Just had some important question that popped into my head today. Do you guys think ear training could become more difficult if someone starts learning to play music relatively late, as opposed to someone who starts early in life?

How about this question: do you guys think that "playing music by ear" is more of a talent, or just about anyone, regardless of age or ability, could learn to do it properly?

Peace.

P.S. Sorry if this is not the right forum to ask this question. If so, I'd appreciate if the admins moved it to the right one. Thanks.

[Stick_Player]

Originally Posted by carlthegroover

How about this question: do you guys think that "playing music by ear" is more of a talent, or just about anyone, regardless of age or ability, could learn to do it properly

My kid could identify triads (i. e., major, minor, diminished, augmented) and seventh chords (i. e., dominant, minor seventh, half-diminished, full-diminished, altered dominants, major seventh) at age 5. He had to have been born with this ability and after learning the chord names could put them together.

He's 10 now and can learn bass parts from recordings with ease (Jaco, McCartney, Bootsy, Marcus Miller, Rocco Prestia, John Paul Jones, Paul Chambers, more).

Of course, I am jealous.

He's been playing violin since age four, also. This has definitely helped.

In his case I believe it's a combination of nature and nurture. But it's NEVER too late to start.

[Achilles2012]

Let's catch a video of him playing Jaco, Marcus Miller and John Paul Jones w/ ease ... My 9 year old can juggle 3 flaming bass guitars and balance one on her nose. Just don't ask me for proof ...

[tjh]

speaking for myself, I never considered myself to have a 'good ear' when it comes to music, but with that said, I am probably concentrating and studying more now (at 56) than any other point ... however, despite being able to seemingly recognize some things a bit better (due to the concentration/emphasis), I also know that my hearing (pitch/volume) is not what it used to be ... I had hearing tested a few years back, and there were several pitches that I did not hear, AT ALL ... with that said, as stated above, some tend to do better naturally, while others need to work harder at it, but improvement seems to be possible for all with/by more exposure and applied study ... IF you can hear the pitch .. JMHO

[VincentSalizeri]

Playing by ear is something anyone can do, given enough practice. That said, it's much easier to learn things while the brain is nice and malleable.

[Rebecca]

I agree with those who say anyone can learn to do it, but whether it's easier young or older can depend, IMO, on how natural a skill it is for you. If you don't have a natural talent for it, you might find that time and knowledge makes it easier for you now than when you were young. Case in point:

As kids, my two brothers and I all took music lessons, but only my younger brother played by ear. He could sit down and play anything he'd ever heard, seemingly without working at. My older brother and I could sight read well and play tastefully, but were completely dependent on sheet music to play anything (me on piano, he on cello).

Fast forward to our twenties: I visit my older brother and find him playing guitar by ear. Struggling, not immediate like other bro, but still. He says, he figured out he could do it, but just really had to work at it. He learned some theory, which helped him analyse what he was doing, and he worked at it. I thought that was amazing - I had assumed it was either something you were born with, or you weren't.

So I gave it a try, and he's right. Knowing theory, like common chord progressions, helps tons. Having good audio options, so you can hear things over and over, helps tons, too. And doing it a lot. Will I ever be like my younger brother, who can hear something once and play it inside out? Probably not. But with the theory I've since learned (and did not learn in childhood music lessons) I'm definitely better at it then I was as a kid. To do it, I need tools and knowledge I didn't have back then, but that I do have now. If I ever was a music teacher, though, I'd certainly include ear training as part of what I taught. Maybe kids' music teachers do that now.

[Soul Power]

As it has been said, ANYONE can learn it with enough practice.
Before I took my musicianship class (basically ear training and sight singing) I could not for the life of me identity intervals other than obvious ones like the tritone and minor second.
Our only homework for the entire semester was to sing 16 major scales each day.
Needless to say, I didn't really start doing it until a gig that I had where I went in overly confident and completely messed up the first two songs (granted, I had only been given the chord charts the day before, but still).
I started singing every damn thing I play from that day forward (which was only like two or three weeks ago).
My routine is sing major scale ascending then descending, then starting on Do and going Do-Re, Re-Mi, Mi-Fa and so on both descending and asending (that way you get all the possible intervals excluding compound intervals, which is exactly the same just an octave up..EX Do-Re = major second, Do-Ti = minor second)
Then I start moving around in the cycle of fifths and just repeating that until I end up back on the scale I started on. BUT, I find the root of the next scale WITHIN my mind as opposed to out loud. I have a tendency to sing a perfect fourth when I mean to sing a perfect fifth, so I just sing the perfect fourth in my head and then move to fifth.
I get it right every time now, and I can do it in my head.

THEN, I start over, but I start out only on the second scale degree as opposed to the root like the first cycle. I keep doing this until all degrees are covered.

Needless to say, within a week I can identify all intervals (including compound ones) about 80% of the time (i have trouble with minor sixes and major sixths though, but i believe its only a matter of weeks before I get those down)...from about 20%.
In addition to this, when we do harmonic dictation in musicianship I can identify the progressions MUCH MUCH better than when I started.
There was one time recently where I got the 2nd and third chords wrong but I still got all the others (out of 11) because I had been singing the major scale so much that I could pick out the degree of the chord in relation to tonic, even when I lost track of the chord preceding it.
People always feel that there is something unobtainable with music, and that is ABSOLUTE ********. If you work your ass off, you will be rewarded.
When it comes to ear training, I believe singing the major scale in that fashion + whatever works better for you is the golden ticket.

By the way, I'm 20, started playing bass at 14, didn't really take it seriously until about a year or two ago. Never really sang before this class.

[rockosocko]

Think of it in these terms: ultimately you hear with your brain, your ears merely are channels to get the sound to your brain. Having said that, I believe your can train yourself to recognize pitches at nearly any age. Using myself as an example, I was never really able to pick out harmonies when I was younger, but after making more of an effort I am now able to do so at 45.

[Billnc]

We have been hearing musical intervals all our lives, therefore they are not a new concept (unless you are very young) for our minds to grasp. We are simply naming them.

[Rockmusician]

I am wondering the same thing about trying to learn theory. I am 50 and have always had a good ear. I can play anything just by listening to it, but I have absolutely no understanding of theory. Despite playing for more than 30 years, I don't know anything about scales, triads, time signatures, etc. I have been told by many people that I am a very good player and that I have great timing. A good friend of mine who has degrees from Berklee and several other schools, currently teaches music education. He and I have played together many times. One day he said "play the 5th instead of the root". I had no idea what he was talking about. He laughed thinking that I was joking. When I finally convinced him that I was serious, he said "how the hell can you play that well and have not know what you are doing?" He went on to say "if you learned theory and how to read, you would be deadly and could play with anyone." I thanked him for the compliment and then he offered to teach theory to me. I tried over and over but just couldn't get it. I know what notes I am playing but that's about it.

As far as learning at a later age is concerned, I don't think it matters. You can eiter do it or you can't. It will take some practice, but I think more people play by ear than by being trained in theory.

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by Rockmusician

I am wondering the same thing about trying to learn theory. I am 50 and have always had a good ear. I can play anything just by listening to it, but I have absolutely no understanding of theory. Despite playing for more than 30 years, I don't know anything about scales, triads, time signatures, etc. I have been told by many people that I am a very good player and that I have great timing. A good friend of mine who has degrees from Berklee and several other schools, currently teaches music education. He and I have played together many times. One day he said "play the 5th instead of the root". I had no idea what he was talking about. He laughed thinking that I was joking. When I finally convinced him that I was serious, he said "how the hell can you play that well and have not know what you are doing?" He went on to say "if you learned theory and how to read, you would be deadly and could play with anyone." I thanked him for the compliment and then he offered to teach theory to me. I tried over and over but just couldn't get it. I know what notes I am playing but that's about it.

As far as learning at a later age is concerned, I don't think it matters. You can eiter do it or you can't. It will take some practice, but I think more people play by ear than by being trained in theory.

I've taught geezers (yeah I'm one too), the only time I have trouble is when they start reading into what I am teaching. Much of theory isn't really theory per se. A major chord is root 3rd 5th. That is all it is, something we agree exists along with a few other chords types. Then we learn what to do with those chords/tones. That is all.

Your friend is probably going way too fast. Just go one step at a time, one small concept at a time and let it build.

[Stumbo]

Some links that may interest you:
~Ear training
Goodear.com
Test your ear
Free downloadable ear trainer (basic/advanced) Solfege. Xlnt program
Trainers/tutorials. Music theory, ear training, read music, chords, intervals, etc.
Online Visual Beginning Theory, ear trainer

[Stick_Player]

Originally Posted by Achilles2012

Let's catch a video of him playing Jaco, Marcus Miller and John Paul Jones w/ ease ... My 9 year old can juggle 3 flaming bass guitars and balance one on her nose. Just don't ask me for proof ...

That's a possibility. This summer we'll work up a video collage. He needs to finish up 5th grade, first.

Should we add in "What is Hip", too?

I'm thinking: Black Dog, Chillin', Teen Town, What is Hip.

Will that work for you?

We'll pass on the juggling routine. Okay?

[Skitch it!]

A v.simple way I was taught back when was to associate intervals with songs - Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, the first two notes of the melody are a Perfect 5th apart, My Way - first 2 notes are a Maj 6th. Find a song for each of the notes in the intervallic major scale and practice these intervals in mind, the more you do it, the more you automate it.

Whole Lotta Love riff - first 2 notes are a Minor 3rd etc. Try to imagine the first 5 frets of the neck in mind at the same time and associate intervals.

It's a basic way, but useful.

[Phil Smith]

Ear Training is the ability to identify what you have heard. Everyone can hear unless of course they are deaf, but not everyone can identify what it is that they have heard.

[Babaghanoush]

A key is to internalize the pitch. Just playing and listening can work if you're very gifted but singing really helps to speed the process along. If you can sing the pitch/s then you have really heard them. I'm not a big fan of singing melodies to learn intervals. Just the opposite. Practice singing ascending and descending 5th to you have them cold. Add 3rds, etc until you have the interval vocabulary to sing increasingly chromatic melodies. I wouldn't only study melodic intervals. Harmonic intervals should be investigated also.
There's alot of great software available for quizzing yourself and it is helpful. No matter what the age, don't be afraid to give it a try but the importance of singing cannot be understated.

[TripleDouble]

The mind is more of an "open book" at an early age, but still has plenty of capacity to learn at any age, the key is to not be encumbered by too much thought activity. And we all have different natural capacity and talents, but anyone can learn. I had a freind who was by all accounts tone deaf, but he learned to sing a major scale with a whole lot of practice and guidance, and now plays a little guitar too. There is a great book called "This is your brain on music" that you might find interesting.