Essential Jazz Knowledge? Check this out!

[EricTheEZ1]

I hope that drew some people in. I recently heard of Band-In-A-Box and though I don't really like the program, the website has a great feature called "Riff-A-Day". I've learned more about playing jazz basslines with this website than anything else, oddly enough.
http://www.pgmusic.com/riffaday_eg.php?riff=1

They have 101 riffs with standard notation, chord progression, and chord names. That's all I ever really need. I already know the various modes (not necessarily the crazy jazz ones), and it's enough to get me through the standard progressions. I read up on the Circle of Fifths which helped a bit, but I have a big question.

With all the theory about playing jazz bass, what is the essential knowledge one should know before trying to play along with your favorite standards and whatnot?

[Snarf]

You don't necessarily need knowledge before you start practicing with recordings. It's an entirely different matter to be able to hang with happenin' cats.

[EricTheEZ1]

Well, my question is one I think a LOT of new jazz bassists ask themselves. Look at the FAQ in this forum, for God's sake. It's full of knowledge but I can guarantee you don't need to memorize it all to be able to play solid jazz lines and solos.

If you're playing walking blues basslines you need to know minor, major, mixolydian, and the blues scales if you ask me. That's pretty much all I ever use and it's the majority of what any blues/rock band uses, I think we can guarantee.

For jazz, it's simply a wierd transition for a rock/blues/funk guy like myself. Sometimes I'll hear a great funk or soul song and a solo will sound so melodic or oddly funky. It's because they're throwing jazz licks into their lines/solos.

What should you know before undertaking those sorts of things, or is it just fooling around until you know what sounds right?

-Eric.

[Poop-Loops]

I almost cried when I saw this:

[iplaybassguitar]

what the heck is that

[TL5]

Originally Posted by iplaybassguitar

what the heck is that

Caterpillar parade?

[WillPlay4Food]

Way off, I was never here.

[Pacman]

The first three bars are ii-V-i in Am, then a ii-V in Cm, resolving to a C maj. Odd, but not too out.

To answer the original poster, the essential knowledge is that there are no shortcuts, no subsitute for time on the instrument, ear training, and transcribing. You're missing so much from your list of "all I'll ever need" it's not funny. Dorian? Comes in handy playing jazz....

[spindizzy]

Now this is what I call fun. Great site great thread!

[EricTheEZ1]

Re-read what I wrote. Since my background is in rock, blues, and funk, I know how to write BLUES walking basslines. Those involve the 4 scales I listed primarily. Dorian is used, sure. I don't know how to describe it but Mix, Dorian, Minor, and Blues become one big scale when I play Blues and it has never failed me.

Getting back to JAZZ, I was never asking for shortcuts. I play my bass all the time and I've got a great ear. However, the things you mentioned don't involve 99% of the theory out there. Once again, my question was what are the areas of theory that are ESSENTIAL to playing solid jazz basslines and solos.

-Eric.

[20db pad]

I can see where high-level Jazz players might have a problem with the idea of a bunch of standard "plug in" phrases. It can be looked at as a "cut and paste" approach to improv, where finding the right phrase is more important than really listening and reacting to the music being played in and of the moment in real time. Getting to the place where you can really do that, as opposed to regurgitating riffs is a very serious undertaking with a lot of hard work involved. That's where there are no shortcuts.

As far as essential concepts, I'd suggest a good solid knowledge of all 7th chord arpeggios - minor, major, augmented, diminished, in all their inversions. After that, a study of scale degrees is necessary - you have to be able to immediately hear and identify these degrees, and all their alterations, i.e. #9, b9, #11, and what have you. In addition, a knowledge of scales is important, especially the melodic minor scale. Add to that an understanding of approach tones, guide tones, and upper and lower neighbors.

[EricTheEZ1]

You know, one thing I'm not sure I stated earlier was that the riffs that are actually notated are not things I'm learning. The majority of those riffs sound too similar and not the way I would want my solos to sound. I'm just using those as riffs to play along with and learn to play basslines around slightly different jazz styles.

[steveb98]

Originally Posted by WillPlay4Food

7-1-6-2-5-1 maybe? Although some of the chords (Dm7b5) wouldn't exactly fit western diatonic theory? Just a guess but Dm-G7(ALT?)-CMaj7 basically says 2-5-1.

Huh? A minor 7b5 (AKA half-diminished) is the ii chord in minor. The generic minor ii-V is min7b5 to altered dominant. Pick up a book on
Jazz/modern theory. In a nutshell they combine the various minor scales to come up with a more pleasant sound. If you used the Aeolian mode (relative minor) you'd end up with a full diminish ii chord in minor.

[steveb98]

I think too many people look at theory the wrong way. They think theory is the right answer to questions. IMO theory and reading/writing music is our language to communicate with, analyze music, and keep notes for using idea again. Theory is also a source of new ideas to work with and make music from.

Like the Riff-A-Day what you doing with it? Just playing the riffs and see which ones sound cool to you then collecting them. That is a one use and you can good hear a million musicians who sound like that is what they have been doing. Guitar player are infamous for learning zillions of riffs and when they solo they sound like Bingo of Riffs. Solos don't have a beginning or end, no smooth phrasing, just a bunch of riffs tied together. No you find the rif you like, then need to tranpose it to all twelve keys. That will build technique and fretboard knowledge. Now time to analyize it to see what are the sounds being used that make you like it. Now you have a new sound and not just a riff. That is how theory pays off. Also Theory reveals new ideas to experiment with. Scales, chords, chord subsitutions, scale subsituions.

Think of theory more as a tool more than a rule book.

[Zebra]

If you want to know what to focus on in order to play along in a jazz group, I think you shouldn't be practicing with that site. There are a lot of standard jazz chord progressions, but most of the songs you'll play aren't going to fit into those. It's really important that you're trained to look at a chart and know how to get around, even if that chart's completely foreign to you. Those kinda patterns will help sometimes, but usually not. And if you're playing for a real listener of jazz, they're going to spot those patterns right away, and they won't like it.

[Snarf]

Originally Posted by EricTheEZ1

Well, my question is one I think a LOT of new jazz bassists ask themselves. Look at the FAQ in this forum, for God's sake. It's full of knowledge but I can guarantee you don't need to memorize it all to be able to play solid jazz lines and solos.

If you're playing walking blues basslines you need to know minor, major, mixolydian, and the blues scales if you ask me. That's pretty much all I ever use and it's the majority of what any blues/rock band uses, I think we can guarantee.

Okay, maybe that's all you need for a rock blues. For a real blues (AKA jazz blues) and ANYTHING to do with jazz, you need more than scales, more than arpeggios. You need a FEEL, you need little nuances with passing and neighbor tones, you need to BE jazz to do it right.

And yes, you need to memorize all that stuff, and be able to play it without thinking. That and much, MUCH more, if you want to be halfway competent. Trust me.

[WillPlay4Food]

Originally Posted by steveb98

Huh? A minor 7b5 (AKA half-diminished) is the ii chord in minor. The generic minor ii-V is min7b5 to altered dominant. Pick up a book on Jazz/modern theory. In a nutshell they combine the various minor scales to come up with a more pleasant sound. If you used the Aeolian mode (relative minor) you'd end up with a full diminish ii chord in minor.

Guess the stuff I've played hasn't dealt with minor ii-V. I have Levine's Jazz Theory book but haven't delved too much into it yet because I'm still working on more basic stuff, which is still in major keys with little tonality center shifts.

I edited my initial post so as not to confuse anyone else.

[mstott25]

Originally Posted by Snarf

Okay, maybe that's all you need for a rock blues. For a real blues (AKA jazz blues) and ANYTHING to do with jazz, you need more than scales, more than arpeggios. You need a FEEL, you need little nuances with passing and neighbor tones, you need to BE jazz to do it right.

And yes, you need to memorize all that stuff, and be able to play it without thinking. That and much, MUCH more, if you want to be halfway competent. Trust me.

What?!? Do you have to be born jazz to do it right also? The guy just wants to start playing jazz, it's not like he's asking to reach total nirvana.

Band in a box is a perfect practicing tool for learning jazz. Put in a chord progression and practice walking over it. If you're having trouble making it sound smooth, go transcribe Ray Brown playing over the same tune and see how he did it. Yes it takes hard work but everybody is a beginner at some point and playing jazz does not require any more or less feel than playing blues or gospel or r&b. "Real blues" (as opposed to fake blues I guess) just has some variations in the standard blues progressions. It is neither harder nor easier, just different. That doesn't make it real or make it require any sort of mystical powers in order to master it.

Scales are just a means to an end. You can memorize every mode and scale but you're still not going to be able to play jazz afterwards. I wouldn't say any scales are essential to jazz knowledge but a few are helpful: Major, Mixolydian, Dorian, Locrian, and Diminished. I don't like thinking in terms of scales because my brain just doesn't work that way. I would say as long as you know your chordal tones and are listening to good jazz musicians, set up your band in a box with the chord progression to something like Autumn Leaves or a simple blues progression and just practice over and over walking and making it sound smooth. Honestly, the best book you can get on walking bass is Todd Coolman's the Bottom Line. Just do yourself a favor and buy that book (I think you can get it from Aebersold). Since you're a bass player, you need to work on walking bass first and then you should work on soloing.

[jbl71004]

I realize I'm a little off topic (just don't want to create another thread) and that I'm beating a dead horse considering the wealth of information on here about walking jazz, but I'm wondering if how I plan to begin practicing is correct/off base/waste of time?! I'm happy enough with my finger strength/dexterity that I no longer feel the need to go home and wear them out (thus neglecting areas of practice that actually require you to slow down a little in order to benefit!). I'd like to start walking (on bass, of course!), and my plan is to get out the Real Book I just bought and go to town from one song to the next, hitting a few chord tones and then an approach note for each chord (when there are four beats for the chord in question, or course). I know it gets way more complicated than this, but is this a good way to ease into it? I have chord spellings pretty well drilled into my head, now I just want to put it to use and become a decent jazz player. Any advice or criticisms?

[steveb98]

Originally Posted by jbl71004

I realize I'm a little off topic (just don't want to create another thread) and that I'm beating a dead horse considering the wealth of information on here about walking jazz, but I'm wondering if how I plan to begin practicing is correct/off base/waste of time?! I'm happy enough with my finger strength/dexterity that I no longer feel the need to go home and wear them out (thus neglecting areas of practice that actually require you to slow down a little in order to benefit!). I'd like to start walking (on bass, of course!), and my plan is to get out the Real Book I just bought and go to town from one song to the next, hitting a few chord tones and then an approach note for each chord (when there are four beats for the chord in question, or course). I know it gets way more complicated than this, but is this a good way to ease into it? I have chord spellings pretty well drilled into my head, now I just want to put it to use and become a decent jazz player. Any advice or criticisms?

Check out Todd Johnson's DVD on Walking Bass it has an excellent approach that you be Walking lines right from the beginning. Todd has a forum here in TD in the Master's section. Also Ed Friedland's book on Walking Bass has got many going on Walking Bass. You can easily take their concepts as presented and apply to Real Book tunes.