Exercise I've never seen

[armywalaby]

My room mate has been taking lessons from this guy at a local guitar store, and this is one of the fingerings he wants him to learn for A Major.

G-------------------------------
D-------------6 7 6-------------
A-------5 7 9-------9 7 5-------
E 5 7 9--------------------9 7 5
1-2-4-1-2-4-1-2-1-4-2-1-4-2-1

I know that this teacher also has arthritis in his hands.

Has anyone seen this before? I told my friend to stop doing it.

[Implosion]

Why do you find it bad? That's how I would play it if I had to use those positions and my hands are probably normal sized or slightly below the average.

[sundaybender]

Originally Posted by armywalaby

...this is one of the fingerings he wants him to learn for A Major.

G-------------------------------
D-------------6 7 6-------------
A-------5 7 9-------9 7 5-------
E 5 7 9--------------------9 7 5
1-2-4-1-2-4-1-2-1-4-2-1-4-2-1

Yep. That is indeed one of the fingerings for A Major... what's your concern?

In my opinion/experience:

1) There's value in learning all of the patterns for any given scale, up and down the neck.

2) This is a pretty common Major scale pattern.

3) Your buddy will be fine.

[JimmyM]

Dave LaRue taught me to do scales with that exact fingering, so no, your friend doesn't need to stop doing it. His teacher's arthritis is completely unrelated to using this scale.

[EADG mx]

While it's possible to pull that fingering off without hurting yourself, why would you? There are much more practical ways.

[WhiteKnuckles]

That's the same pattern I'd usually use, but was I was also ingrained by my instructor to carry it through the G string (12th note of the scale).

As to why you'd want to use that pattern, my best guess is that it will carry over to modal scales a bit easier in the long run.

[Michael Campbel]

That's the "one" box of PacMan's scale exercise (see stickied). Except the scale exercise goes further into the G string. Seems fine to me. Another fingering I've seen is using the "seven" box which has no 1-3-5 stretches, and just don't play the first seven.

[Febs]

That is a common guitar scale fingering. It's not nearly as practical for bass.

[RDUB]

Seems to me I have a book around with all sorts of these extended type patterns in it. I'll have to look and see whose it is...

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by EADG mx

While it's possible to pull that fingering off without hurting yourself, why would you? There are much more practical ways.

What's not practical about it? Unless you have birth-defected baby hands, there's nothing at all impractical about it.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by armywalaby

My room mate has been taking lessons from this guy at a local guitar store, and this is one of the fingerings he wants him to learn for A Major.

G-------------------------------
D-------------6 7 6-------------
A-------5 7 9-------9 7 5-------
E 5 7 9--------------------9 7 5
1-2-4-1-2-4-1-2-1-4-2-1-4-2-1

I know that this teacher also has arthritis in his hands.

Has anyone seen this before? I told my friend to stop doing it.

There's nothing wrong with that. It's a perfectly valid fingering that could come in handy in certain situations.

Probably best not to tell your friend to stop doing something his teacher has specifically told him to do if you're not really up to speed on what's going on and what the reasons for it might be.

[grifff]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

What's not practical about it? Unless you have birth-defected baby hands, there's nothing at all impractical about it.

I got a good laugh out of that, and I agree with this statement. I don't see any harm coming from playing a scale. If it causes you discomfort to stretch two half steps, then use a different pattern.

[JTE]

Ya know you don't have to stretch. You can pivot up to grab the ninth fret with your pinky and still not hurt yourself. It gives you three notes on each string which might help with sightreading.

There was an ancient article in Guitar Player by either Howard Roberts or Tommy Tedesco that talked about using three notes per string for every thing.

John

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by JTE

Ya know you don't have to stretch. You can pivot up to grab the ninth fret with your pinky and still not hurt yourself. It gives you three notes on each string which might help with sightreading.

There was an ancient article in Guitar Player by either Howard Roberts or Tommy Tedesco that talked about using three notes per string for every thing.

John

Pssht. That falls under the category of "Useful Technique" and we will have none of that around here. Let's talk about double thumping and two handed tapping instead.

[CharlieDog]

Only if we can have a discussion about 80mph slapping as well.

[EADG mx]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

What's not practical about it? Unless you have birth-defected baby hands, there's nothing at all impractical about it.

Ok, since you asked:

Scale A)

G-------------------------------
D-------------6-7-6-------------
A-------5-7-9-------9-7-5-------
E-5-7-9-------------------9-7-5-
--1-2-4-1-2-4-1-2-1-4-2-1-4-2-1


Scale B)

G-------------------------------
D-----------4-6-7-6-4-----------
A-----4-5-7-----------7-5-4-----
E-5-7-----------------------7-5-
--2-4-1-2-4-1-3-4-3-1-4-2-1-4-2


Let's see:

- Scale A spans 5 frets. Scale B spans 4 frets.
- Scale A requires a shift in position. Scale B does not.
- Scale A would likely require one to play the 9th fret with the pinky alone (in order to make the shift cleanly with no gap).
- Scale B allows one to play notes at the 7th fret with the ring and pinky together, Simandl style (you guys do play Simandl, right?)
- Scale B requires less stretching and shifting overall.
- Scale B is overall more comfortable (IMO).

The choice is obvious - Scale A makes no sense in comparison, given that much information. Maybe there's a situation in which you'd want to use A, but until I see one I'm not convinced.

As for my hands, no baby hands and no birth defects. 6'3" lanky and I assure you I was a very healthy baby.

Originally Posted by WhiteKnuckles

As to why you'd want to use that pattern, my best guess is that it will carry over to modal scales a bit easier in the long run.

I don't see that, I wouldn't use those fingerings for most of the modal series either.

[SpawnofHastur]

I don't use Simandl. Each of my fingers is an independent unit when I fret.

[EADG mx]

I should let you guys know that I'm a huge advocate of Simandl method for the electric, although of course fingering really is means to an end.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by EADG mx

Ok, since you asked:

Scale A)

G-------------------------------
D-------------6-7-6-------------
A-------5-7-9-------9-7-5-------
E-5-7-9-------------------9-7-5-
--1-2-4-1-2-4-1-2-1-4-2-1-4-2-1


Scale B)

G-------------------------------
D-----------4-6-7-6-4-----------
A-----4-5-7-----------7-5-4-----
E-5-7-----------------------7-5-
--2-4-1-2-4-1-3-4-3-1-4-2-1-4-2


Let's see:

- Scale A spans 5 frets. Scale B spans 4 frets.
- Scale A requires a shift in position. Scale B does not.
- Scale A would likely require one to play the 9th fret with the pinky alone (in order to make the shift cleanly with no gap).
- Scale B allows one to play notes at the 7th fret with the ring and pinky together, Simandl style (you guys do play Simandl, right?)
- Scale B requires less stretching and shifting overall.
- Scale B is overall more comfortable (IMO).

The choice is obvious - Scale A makes no sense in comparison, given that much information. Maybe there's a situation in which you'd want to use A, but until I see one I'm not convinced.

But why should any choice be involved? What's wrong with practicing two different patterns? I've been playing for 40 years, and I can assure you that I've used both fingerings many times over the years. At the very least, practicing a different pattern may help cut you free of the idea that a scale must always start with your 2 finger (which IME is something that folks can get hung up on if they only practice a pattern one way).

One advantage of practicing pattern A is that it allows you to go into an A scale from V position rather than having to start in IV. If you're already in V when you are called on to play a scalar passage, this is an advantage. As you point out, fingering is a means to an end, and having different means available helps your chances of achieving your end. Practicing scales in isolation is one thing, but in the course of actually playing you sometimes find yourself landing in places that are not your ideal starting point for the thing you want to do next. When that happens, it's valuable to have more than one way of launching into the next thing, by which I mean being able to start from different positions and different fingers. Sure, by itself pattern B is easier, but surely the point of learning scalar fingerings is not just to practice them by themselves, but to give you familiarity with things you can use in playing actual music, and to that end it's useful to be able to do it in more than one way.

I am not a big fan of applying Simandl lock-stock-and-barrel to the EBG, because it seems unnecessary to me. There's no particular reason why a technique devised for one instrument has to be applied to a different one. I admit I do often use 1-2-4 in low positions, but virtually never in higher ones, and I never, in any position, feel the need to reinforce the little finger with the ring finger. It just seems needlessly restrictive. But then, I come from classical guitar (many moons ago).

[JTE]

Simandl is great for the 44" or so scale of the double bass. Chop 10" or so inches off that and the REASONS for Simandl start to be less important. I do find I use 1 2 4 in the first postion or sometime second position on fretless often, and occasionally on the fretted. But up above that, with one's hand in the position commonly taught as "proper" for electric bass with the thumb behind the neck and the fingers spread, there's no real advantage to the double bass fingering.

jte