Expanding my theory knowledge

[KingRazor]

Up until recently I thought I pretty much had music theory down. After reading Devine's HOW TO PRACTICE ARPEGGIOS thread, I realized there was plenty more to learn.

For instance, I still only know some of the basics of how chords work, which seems to be the key to everything when it comes to playing bass. I know that chords are made up of notes from the scale (ex: major chords are made from the root, major third and perfect fifth). I also know about seventh/major seventh/minor seventh, minor, augmented, diminished and suspended chords.

I also know some basics about keys and chord progressions.

One thing I knew (or, at least, glanced over at one point) was that it's not uncommon to play the flatted 7th with the V chord. What I didn't know is that it's also not uncommon to play 7th chords with the I and IV, but the major 7th as opposed to the flatted. It's this kind of thing I want to learn more about.

Another thing I'd like to learn about is what chords to expect and when in any given key. The problem I have is that people generally give examples of two or three chord progressions. Nearly every song I play has a 4-chord progression for each verse. (ex: a song in the key of B that goes vi, I, V, IV during the verses)

Any ideas for places I can go to find more info?

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by KingRazor

One thing I knew (or, at least, glanced over at one point) was that it's not uncommon to play the flatted 7th with the V chord. What I didn't know is that it's also not uncommon to play 7th chords with the I and IV, but the major 7th as opposed to the flatted. It's this kind of thing I want to learn more about.

I really can not send you to one place for that, it's just understood that a dominant 7 chord (C7) gets a b7 note. It's also understood that a V chord is dominant before you add the 7th. When you add the b7 it becomes known as the dominant seventh chord. Why? The old guys decided it had to have a name and that's what they named it. Adding a b7 to the V chord increases the tension. Now the V chord was already the dominant chord thus already produces tension - adding the b7 just increases the tension. I like to think of it this way; The V chord wants to move to the tonic I chord. The V7 chord wants to do it RIGHT NOW. You will find the V7 chord used incorrectly in many places - it's just become the accepted thing to do. I'm sure you already have this. http://www.smithfowler.org/music/Chord_Formulas.htm Now the blues will add the b7 to the I and IV chord, and come up with C7, F7, G7. But, understand the blues takes all kinds of liberties. Normally you do not use the b7 with anything except the V, well the viidim perhaps also. Now if you want to add some color to a I or IV THEN this is the time to use the maj7 or R-3-5-7 chord. Then comes Jazz which I will not get into.

Another thing I'd like to learn about is what chords to expect and when in any given key. The problem that people generally give examples of two or three chord progressions. Nearly every song I play has a 4-chord progression for each verse. (ex: a song in the key of B that goes vi, I, V, IV during the verses)

I wish someone would have told me this years ago. It explains a whole lot of things. The melody line and the chord played under it should share some like notes. If this happens both the chord and the melody harmonize each other, and that is a good thing. If they do not share some notes - at the same time in the song - your ear tells you something is not right. Chords have at least two functions in the song. The first is to move the verse or phrase along from rest to tension to climax and then achieve resolution and return to rest. The chord progression you select accomplishes this. The other function is to harmonise the melody line by sharing some of the same notes at the same time in the song. OK that out of the way.....

The following deals with moving the verse along on it's rest, tension, climax, resolution and return to rest journey. For this I can give you a specific site. www.musictheory.net Lessons then Common Chord Progressions will go into detail about how some chords LIKE to move to certain other chords. Normally that vi wants to move to a ii or IV. The iii chord likes to lead somewhere and normally brings the vi with it. The ii and the IV can substitute for each other as can the V or the viidim, things like that are explained at this site. When you take these things into account why chord progressions have some of the chords they do - begin to make since. Understand any chord within the same key will sound OK with any other chord from that same key. And what sounds good to me may not sound good to you so ---- how I write my chord progression may not be like you would. But, you and I have to have our chord progression accomplishing the following.

Now as we discussed above, the chord and the melody line should share some of the same notes with each other. When the melody line moves on to new notes not found in the old chord the old chord goes out of harmony and you have to find a new chord that has some of the new melody notes in it's makeup. In doing that you may destroy the chord movement you established. One way to keep the chord movement you established and also harmonize the melody notes is to add the needed harmonizing melody note as an extensions to the chords you have......... as a 7th 9th 11th or 13th. Perhaps a sus chord, whatever is needed to get the harmonizing note into the song. So it's a balancing act between the journey the verse is taking and what is needed to harmonize the melody line and the chord line.

Now the ole I IV V chord progression will have every note in the scale so you can make this as simple or as complicated as you like. Your choice.

Good luck.

[Big B.]

This was how it finally made sense to me in college theory class. Every note in the major scale has a chord to go with it. ex:

1= major
2=minor
3=minor
4=major
5=dominant
6=minor
7=half diminished
1=major (obviously)

In the key of C they would go as follows, with the seventh in parenthesis=

1= C,E,G,(B) = major 7
2= D,F,A,(C) = minor 7
3= E,G,B,(D) = minor 7
4= F,A,C,(E) = major 7
5= G,B,D,(F) = dominant 7
6= A,C,E,(G) = minor 7
7= B,D,F,(A) = half diminished 7

Remember that C major is the relative major of A minor. That means that if you start on the 6th note of a major scale, you are playing the first note of the relative minor key, the same note are sharp and flat in each key.

C D E F G A B C = C major
A B C D E F G A = A minor, relative minor

I would suggest practicing the four note arpeggios from above. Play them in order, going through the scale notes and your ear will begin to hear how each note relates to the others. Pay attention to how the same note has a different sound in different chords. This applies in every key so I would practice it in every key.
One last point about dominant chords. The flat 7th in a dominant chord comes from the 4th note of the scale it comes from, F in the C major scale . The reason a dominant 7 chord has such a unique sound is because it contains the two most unstable notes in the scale, the 4th and 7th. The 7th scale note is the most unstable in the sense that your ear desires for it to resolve up to the 1st scale note, (ti,do), your ears hear the 4th scale note resolving down to the 3rd scale note (E in C major). The dominant chord is one of the strongest sounds in music because your ear hears it as unresolved and desires for it to resolve to a more stable chord. Most often the 1 chord, for reasons named above.

I hope this helps more than confuses. Keep at it. These ideas were one of the turning points for me when the puzzle really started to come together.

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by Big B.

This was how it finally made sense to me in college theory class. Every note in the major scale has a chord to go with it. ex:

1= major
2=minor
3=minor
4=major
5=dominant
6=minor
7=half diminished
1=major (obviously)

In the key of C they would go as follows, with the seventh in parenthesis=

1= C,E,G,(B) = major 7
2= D,F,A,(C) = minor 7
3= E,G,B,(D) = minor 7
4= F,A,C,(E) = major 7
5= G,B,D,(F) = dominant 7
6= A,C,E,(G) = minor 7
7= B,D,F,(A) = half diminished 7

Remember that C major is the relative major of A minor. That means that if you start on the 6th note of a major scale, you are playing the first note of the relative minor key, the same note are sharp and flat in each key.

C D E F G A B C = C major
A B C D E F G A = A minor, relative minor

I would suggest practicing the four note arpeggios from above. Play them in order, going through the scale notes and your ear will begin to hear how each note relates to the others. Pay attention to how the same note has a different sound in different chords. This applies in every key so I would practice it in every key.
One last point about dominant chords. The flat 7th in a dominant chord comes from the 4th note of the scale it comes from, F in the C major scale . The reason a dominant 7 chord has such a unique sound is because it contains the two most unstable notes in the scale, the 4th and 7th. The 7th scale note is the most unstable in the sense that your ear desires for it to resolve up to the 1st scale note, (ti,do), your ears hear the 4th scale note resolving down to the 3rd scale note (E in C major). The dominant chord is one of the strongest sounds in music because your ear hears it as unresolved and desires for it to resolve to a more stable chord. Most often the 1 chord, for reasons named above.

I hope this helps more than confuses. Keep at it. These ideas were one of the turning points for me when the puzzle really started to come together.

I did actually know most of that. But the fog is certainly clearing.

What I didn't initially know is how 7ths fit in and that they can be used even if the chord you see on your sheet isn't a 7th/major 7th/minor 7th chord.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Big B.

One last point about dominant chords. The flat 7th in a dominant chord comes from the 4th note of the scale it comes from, F in the C major scale . The reason a dominant 7 chord has such a unique sound is because it contains the two most unstable notes in the scale, the 4th and 7th. The 7th scale note is the most unstable in the sense that your ear desires for it to resolve up to the 1st scale note, (ti,do), your ears hear the 4th scale note resolving down to the 3rd scale note (E in C major). The dominant chord is one of the strongest sounds in music because your ear hears it as unresolved and desires for it to resolve to a more stable chord. Most often the 1 chord, for reasons named above.

It's important to keep in mind, though, that the chord built on the 5th degree of the key scale (eg, G in the key of C) does NOT need to have the 7th in it to function as a dominant chord. The essential functionality is there even if you only use triads. This suggests that the fundamentally important part of the dominant-tonic resolution is the leading tone-tonic movement (B-C in C major) coupled with the strong root movement (G-C). The 7th in the V7 chord certainly strengthens the resolution, which is why it's so commonly used, but its presence is not actually required for the resolution to work.

[Big B.]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

It's important to keep in mind, though, that the chord built on the 5th degree of the key scale (eg, G in the key of C) does NOT need to have the 7th in it to function as a dominant chord. The essential functionality is there even if you only use triads. This suggests that the fundamentally important part of the dominant-tonic resolution is the leading tone-tonic movement (B-C in C major) coupled with the strong root movement (G-C). The 7th in the V7 chord certainly strengthens the resolution, which is why it's so commonly used, but its presence is not actually required for the resolution to work.

I agree with that. I was responding to "it is just understood that a dominant chord gets a b7" from an earlier post. Nothing is "just understood" in theory, I was just explaining why the 7th is flat. Most modern rock/funk/r&b relies heavily on the sound of the dominant 7th so it is very important for bass players to understand why it happens and how to manipulate that sound. Bootsy Collins made a career out of it.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Big B.

I agree with that. I was responding to "it is just understood that a dominant chord gets a b7" from an earlier post. Nothing is "just understood" in theory, I was just explaining why the 7th is flat. Most modern rock/funk/r&b relies heavily on the sound of the dominant 7th so it is very important for bass players to understand why it happens and how to manipulate that sound. Bootsy Collins made a career out of it.

[mambo4]

studybass has some good lessons on harmony

once I had achieved a basic understanding of harmonizing a scale, I found a lot of useful info in Marc Sabatella's free online Jazz Improv Primer

and one thing that makes the nature of harmonizing a scale wonderfully clear is looking at it notated on the staff. Everything stacks up neatly in a very obvious way.

[mambo4]

Originally Posted by KingRazor

What I didn't initially know is how 7ths fit in and that they can be used even if the chord you see on your sheet isn't a 7th/major 7th/minor 7th chord.

It's definitely important to be aware of the function of a triad before adding a 7th to it.

If you start looking at popular songs and analyzing the chord progressions, It's also important to keep in mind that while a I or a IV chord is "naturally" a major 7th chord, by no means is that an absolute rule. The Beatles threw in dominant chords all over the place.The blues can be looked at as I7 -IV7- V7 with dominant chords for each, and it certainly isn't "wrong". It's just not strict Diatonic Harmony.

[fitani]

The V7 Chord is a result of the fifth mode of the diatonic Major Scale. For example If you play the notes of the C major scale starting from G going to G you will find that you played a major scale with a b7. You can chose to add the b7 in the chord or walking bass line to create tension.

The different chords for each degree of the scale are the root, third, and fifth, seventh of the chord however based on the notes of the key. so for example in the Key of C Major the third scale degree chord is E and has the notes a E G B D which are notes in the C major scale but starting on the third degree of the scale. This is the Diatonic approach to harmony.

However not all music is written this way as you can see in blues, funk, and many other styles where the chords are not all diatonic counterparts of eachother. In a blues you can play and F7 (Root with a b7) and a Bb7 (Fourth with a b7) in the same song which do not occur diatonically (Eb is not in the Natural major scale of F). When someone gives you a chart its not neccessarily following diatonic harmony, meaning you dont have to play the root chord with a 7 and the fourth chord with a b7. It depends on what written.

I think a good starting point for learning how to play through chord changes is ed freidland's "Building walking bass lines"

I writing this based on my understanding.

cheers

[A tempo]

Originally Posted by fitani

.........so for example in the Key of C Major the third scale degree chord is E and has the notes a E G B D which are notes in the C major scale but starting on the third degree of the scale. This is the Diatonic approach to harmony.

I believe that the chord would be an E minor7. Note that the G is a minor 3rd from the E, and the D is a b7.

[devine]

KingRazor...
Check out Mark Levine's 'Jazz theory' book. It's a great reference and well written. You can pick it up at all the usual places... Amazon etc.

Easy man,

Scott.

http://www.scottsbasslessons.com

http://www.scottdevinemusic.com

[Benjamin188]

I was reading on this site, and i came across this paragraph saying
that the largest string is the E chord and then the A, then D then g. I always thought that is was g, d ,a ,e, Can someone explain this to me

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by Benjamin188

I was reading on this site, and i came across this paragraph saying
that the largest string is the E chord and then the A, then D then g. I always thought that is was g, d ,a ,e, Can someone explain this to me

From thickest to thinnest it goes: E, A, D, G in standard tuning.

Most 5 strings are tuned B, E, A, D, G and 6 strings are B, E, A, D, G, C.


On topic:

I just tried something today. But before I say what I did I want you to understand how I got to this. The very first song I ever learned on bass was very simple, a 4 chord progression that repeated throughout the song. The progression went F, G, A#, C. I played those 4 notes on the bass over and over for months. I got to the point where I could recognize the notes A# and C by ear (which is how I can tell what a string is tuned to without a tuner). I used to play those two notes together because the sound of the A# moving to the C just sounded so right. I realized today that A# is flatted 7th of C............Sorry I'm too tired to know how this fits in, I'll fix this when post when I'm more awake. Bottom line: A#-C sounds good. :P

[Rudreax]

Originally Posted by KingRazor

From thickest to thinnest it goes: E, A, D, G in standard tuning.

Most 5 strings are tuned B, E, A, D, G and 6 strings are B, E, A, D, G, C.


On topic:

I just tried something today. But before I say what I did I want you to understand how I got to this. The very first song I ever learned on bass was very simple, a 4 chord progression that repeated throughout the song. The progression went F, G, A#, C. I played those 4 notes on the bass over and over for months. I got to the point where I could recognize the notes A# and C by ear (which is how I can tell what a string is tuned to without a tuner). I used to play those two notes together because the sound of the A# moving to the C just sounded so right. I realized today that A# is the V7 of C. The difference between the V-I and the V7-I, at least in my case, is dramatic.

I think I'm finally starting to get this stuff for real.

Mind explaining this a bit? I always thought G7 was the V7 of C. I mean, if you to change it's name it Bb, it would be the b7 of a C7 chord, but beyond that I don't see this.

What's the song in question? I'm curious.

[KingRazor]

Originally Posted by Rudreax

Mind explaining this a bit? I always thought G7 was the V7 of C. I mean, if you to change it's name it Bb, it would be the b7 of a C7 chord, but beyond that I don't see this.

What's the song in question? I'm curious.

Sorry, I get notes and chords confused sometimes. I'm very tired right now. I edited my post.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by KingRazor

I just tried something today. But before I say what I did I want you to understand how I got to this. The very first song I ever learned on bass was very simple, a 4 chord progression that repeated throughout the song. The progression went F, G, A#, C. I played those 4 notes on the bass over and over for months. I got to the point where I could recognize the notes A# and C by ear (which is how I can tell what a string is tuned to without a tuner). I used to play those two notes together because the sound of the A# moving to the C just sounded so right. I realized today that A# is flatted 7th of C............Sorry I'm too tired to know how this fits in, I'll fix this when post when I'm more awake. Bottom line: A#-C sounds good. :P

Actually, A# is NOT the "flatted 7th" of C. Bb is. You might think this is just a quibble, but this kind of thing does matter for seeing how all this fits together.

C=1
D=2
E=3
F=4
G=5
A=6
B=7

From this you can see that by definition, if you take C as your root or 1, an A--ANY kind of A, whether sharped, flatted, or natural--has to be some kind of 6th and can't be a 7th. And that a 7th, of whatever variety, has to be a B of some sort.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

Actually, A# is NOT the "flatted 7th" of C. Bb is. You might think this is just a quibble, but this kind of thing does matter for seeing how all this fits together.

Mental check list to make sure you've got it correct.

Make sure that all seven notes are accounted for, i.e. not one left out.
No duplication of notes, i.e. A, A#
Each scale should have just flats or just sharps no mixing of sharps and flats in the same scale.

[JTE]

Originally Posted by KingRazor

For instance, I still only know some of the basics of how chords work, which seems to be the key to everything when it comes to playing bass. I know that chords are made up of notes from the scale (ex: major chords are made from the root, major third and perfect fifth). I also know about seventh/major seventh/minor seventh, minor, augmented, diminished and suspended chords.

I also know some basics about keys and chord progressions.

One thing I knew (or, at least, glanced over at one point) was that it's not uncommon to play the flatted 7th with the V chord. What I didn't know is that it's also not uncommon to play 7th chords with the I and IV, but the major 7th as opposed to the flatted. It's this kind of thing I want to learn more about.

Another thing I'd like to learn about is what chords to expect and when in any given key. The problem I have is that people generally give examples of two or three chord progressions. Nearly every song I play has a 4-chord progression for each verse. (ex: a song in the key of B that goes vi, I, V, IV during the verses)

Any ideas for places I can go to find more info?

A good place to start is to learn about the harmonized scale. THIS is where chords come from, and it's important to learn. It's easy too. Just take every other note of the scale and stack them up. Then do the same with the next note of the scale, etc.

For example, using C major...

Write out the scale...

C D E F G A B C

Then, starting at the third note, repeat it above what you just wrote...
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

And again, starting a third from the last line you wrote to get the triads...
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

And one more time for the 7th chords...
B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Now take the time to analyze what each of those stacks are in the triads and the 7th chords. It's wrong to say "... it's just understood that a dominant 7 chord (C7) gets a b7 note." Why? Because there's a reason the V chord has the b7 of the root, and it's in the harmonized scale. LOOK closely at the four-note chord built on the fifth note of the scale. It's got a major third from the root to the third, a minor third from the third to the fifth, and another minor 7 from the fifth to the seventh. That F natural is the b7 of the G note, and that F combined with the B (the third of the chord) gives it the distinctive clash and the unsettled sound that pulls your ear to the I chord. The notes are all from the same scale, that's why the V chord has a b7, not because it's "understood".

Same with the I and IV being major- it's inherent in the notes that you get when you stack thirds in the parent key.

Learn this harmonized scale, it will help you more then twiddling your fingers through all the modes .

Here's a repeat of something from earlier threads about what order to study theory concepts in...

From an earlier post of mine (with thanks to mambo4 for creating the framework)...

---------------------------------------
THEORY PROGRESSION
---------------------------------------
Theory can seem like a quagmire to those who are starting out, and it's often difficult to know just how important a particular aspect of it is. I will say that learning how chords are built from scales is the most important aspect of theory. It is far more useful to understand chord construction than to memorize all those "Scales A and B go with chord X" formulas.

I'd say the logical progression learning music theory is this:

1.) Learn the major scale, and how it's constructed
2.) Learn how basic chords are built from the major scale- e.g Major is 1,3,5, minor is 1,b3, 5, etc.
3.) Learn how to harmonize the notes of any diatonic major scale by building chords / stacking thirds.
4.) Learn arppegios/chord tones
5.) Learn to look at common chord progressions as "numerals" (eg, I-IV-V ect) to understand how the chords relate to the song's key.
6.) Learn the Natural Minor scale (a/k/a Aeolian mode) and the dominant scale (a/k/a Mixolydian); And learn how these relate to the major scale (i.e.; its the V and vi mode)
7.) Understand how other 4 modes of the major scale are derived (less important to memorize these other modes at first)
8.) Dive back into modes for more detailed ideas about what "goes" with what chord.

Bass playing is basically a matter of knowing what to play over various chords. It may seem daunting at first, but my practical experience (bass in pop/rock) has been that I mostly use Major, Minor, and Dominant 7 related bassline patterns, usually based on chord tones and pentatonics. Even if you're playing some guitar oriented riff-rock, each riff is going to imply a chord of some kind.

"BUT HOW DO I APPLY THIS THEORY TO MY PLAYING?"
85%+ of the time, you will be going from root note to root note as the chords change. The trick is learning how to do it with a groove and feel that is stylistically appropriate to the song. The best way to reach stylistic understanding is to learn songs you like and pick them apart to see how the bassline relates to the chords. I cannot emphasize this idea enough: The answer to this common question is to LEARN AND ANALYZE BASS LINES BY THE MASTERS. Once you undertand what Jamerson (for example) did with a particular set of changes, these ideas become added to your tool set, to use, change, blend and create your own voice.

I highly recommend Edley's Music Theory for Practical People as well.
http://www.edly.com/mtfpp.html

John

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Mental check list to make sure you've got it correct.

Make sure that all seven notes are accounted for, i.e. not one left out.
No duplication of notes, i.e. A, A#
Each scale should have just flats or just sharps no mixing of sharps and flats in the same scale.

For the most part, but not entirely. It is actually possible to have flats and sharps in the same scale, though most of the time you're right, this doesn't tend to happen. The D harmonic minor scale is a good example: D E F G A Bb C# D.

There are scales that have notes left out, like the pentatonic and whole tone scales. And whereas the point about not duplicating notes is generally valid, there are more tricky scales that are impossible to render unless you duplicate a note, like the whole-half and half-whole diminished scales.