A few music theory questions I couldnt find answers to with a search

[Vacume]

I have been useing the website www.teoria.com and I have a few questions. when identifying time signatures it often shows me a 2 eighth notes with a "2" above them and i am unshure as how to play/count it. It also tests me on dimished 7th chords, I understand dimished 7th and half dimished 7th but it has many more that I cannot understand like VII7 / III or VII7 / VI could someone please explain them to me? Thanks alot TB.

[ninjadeathfunk]

Teoria is a kickass free site!

As far as the 2 eighth notes with the 2, the part is most likely in compund time (6/8, 12/8), meaning this a duplet. This means you play two notes in the span of three. At least I think. Music theory is still pretty new to me too (seeing as I don't know how to answer the other question).

[Steve Dixon]

if you mean the stuff on this page : http://www.teoria.com/exercises/measure.htm

the 2's mean 2 notes in the time of 3

The other stuff are secondary diminished sevenths... they're diminished sevenths built on roots that are not the primary place for a diminished seventh (i.e. in C major, built on B)

they're always non-diatonic... i.e. not all notes are in the key

in your example, VII7 / III is a diminished seventh built on the 3rd note of the major scale (i.e. in C, it would be built on E...)



incidentally, there's a reason they gave those examples (VII7/III and VII7/VI) - it's because there are only 3 different VII7 chords (they're symmetrical stacks of minor 3rds, so they 'start again' every minor 3rd)... in the key of C:

primary: B D F Ab
built on III: E G Bb Db
built on VI: A C Eb Gb

so you'd probably never really see 'VII7 / II', because it has the same notes as the primary diminished 7th

[alexwittscheck]

Originally Posted by Steve Dixon

if you mean the stuff on this page : http://www.teoria.com/exercises/measure.htm

the 2's mean 2 notes in the time of 3

The other stuff are secondary diminished sevenths... they're diminished sevenths built on roots that are not the primary place for a diminished seventh (i.e. in C major, built on B)

they're always non-diatonic... i.e. not all notes are in the key

in your example, VII7 / III is a diminished seventh built on the 3rd note of the major scale (i.e. in C, it would be built on E...)

Bingo.

Those classes always left me with a headache. Not a hard concept once you get it though.

May be good to note that these kind of chords can be used to modulate. Or just used to confuse people.

[alexwittscheck]

BTW awesome site. I have never came across it. I will use this to keep up my chops.

[edit] Uhhh mental chops that is. [/edit]

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Vacume

It also tests me on dimished 7th chords, I understand dimished 7th and half dimished 7th but it has many more that I cannot understand like VII7 / III or VII7 / VI could someone please explain them to me? Thanks alot TB.

The first part apparently means a diminished 7th chord; the second part is the degree of the main key to which the chord acts as a secondary diminished. (This is just a twist on the idea of the secondary dominant. It's the same idea by which you'd write V7/V7.)

So if this is in the key of C, VII7/III would mean a D#dim7 chord. The reason is that E is the 3rd degree of the C major scale. If we take E as the "temporary tonic" (i.e., a temporary I), which is basically what we do when we use secondary dominants, the dim7 chord that stands in a VII7 relation to E is D#dim7.

I looked on the teoria site, and the example I saw showed a C#dim7 chord on a staff with a key signature showing one flat (i.e., F major or D minor). We were seemingly meant to assume it was F major. The author interpreted this chord as being VII7/VI. The reason is that D is the 6th degree of F major, and the dim7 chord that stands in a VII7 relation to D is C#dim7. Of course, this example could just as easily have been thought of as being in D minor to begin with, in which case the C#dim7 chord would just be a simple VII7 (i.e., VII7/I).

So when you see VII7/III in C for example, that doesn't mean Edim7, it means D#dim7.

BTW, don't mix up things like VII7/III with terms like dim7 and half-dim7. The latter describe types of chords--that is, chords constructed in a certain way, regardless of how they may be functioning harmonically. The former, in contrast, is a functional analysis--it's describing what the chord is presumably doing in the harmony, and it's not a different type of chord from the dim7 you already know.

[Steve Dixon]

Originally Posted by alexwittscheck

May be good to note that these kind of chords can be used to modulate. Or just used to confuse people.

there are lots of cool things you can do with them... you can think of them as a dominant 7 chord with raised root... which would tend to lead you to the relative minor chord of the one that the standard dominant would point you towards...

i.e. listen to C7 -> F

then compare C#dim7 -> Dm


me likey that sound

[Vacume]

Thanks guys I totally get it now! and youre right alexwittscheck its very helpful!

But I have a few more questions, the first is really dumb Richard Lindsey you said i shouldnt "mix things like VII7/III with terms like dim7 and half-dim7" but im confused as to how I would pro nounce a chord like VII7/III?

I think I understand the concept of a 9nth chord ( its the same as a 7th chord with a 9nth added right?) but if you look at this page http://www.teoria.com/exercises/c9i.htm it has some chord symbols I dont understand like the triangles. Also if you try a couple excersises it uses a symbol that looks like a funny X as a accidental.

Also Steve Dixon you said 2 eighth notes with a 2 above them should be counted as 2 notes in the time of 3, but sometimes in 4/4 time I see a 5 or 3(a 3 that isnt a triplet because it uses 2 beats) with a line connecting them useing 2 beats dos this mean count 5 beats in the time of two? could you give me some advice on how to count this?

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Vacume

But I have a few more questions, the first is really dumb Richard Lindsey you said i shouldnt "mix things like VII7/III with terms like dim7 and half-dim7" but im confused as to how I would pro nounce a chord like VII7/III?

VII7/III isn't a chord. It's an analysis of a chord's function in a specific situation. You would only use it if you were looking through a progression of existing chords and trying to analyze what each of them is doing harmonically. That is in fact what the teoria exercise is doing harmonically. The guy is saying, you're in the key of F, you have a C#dim7 chord, what is that chord's harmonic function? (Answer: VII7/VI). He's not asking how you play a VII7/III chord, because that question would be meaningless. He's not saying it's a particular type of chord, like a diminished 7th, because that would be untrue.

That's why I say not to mix up things that shouldn't be mixed. A C#dim7 is always the same four notes regardless of its particular harmonic function in any given situation, and it's always played exactly the same way.

As an analogy, a soccer player is always the same person regardless of what position he is playing. When you talk about what the chord is, you're specifying whether the player is David Villa or Dirk Kuyt or Claude Makelele. That doesn't change: it is what it is. When you're doing harmonic analysis, you're specifying whether that player is playing as a forward, a winger, an attacking central midfielder, or whatever. That CAN change, at least in theory. C#dim7 is Wesley Sneijder; VII7/VI is central midfield. Does that help?

[plangentmusic]

I used to teach theory and I found it best to strip a lot of the academic stuff down to what's practical. You can view music as a mathmatical equation for an eternity, but that has nothing to do with making music. Now I teach how theory applies in musical situations, as oppossed to learning the theory and trying to adopt it to musical situations.


This is a great site that explains every Beatles song ever recorded from a theoretical perspective. You can learn a lot, AND it's fun!

[Stumbo]

Originally Posted by plangentmusic

I used to teach theory and I found it best to strip a lot of the academic stuff down to what's practical. You can view music as a mathmatical equation for an eternity, but that has nothing to do with making music. Now I teach how theory applies in musical situations, as oppossed to learning the theory and trying to adopt it to musical situations.


This is a great site that explains every Beatles song ever recorded from a theoretical perspective. You can learn a lot, AND it's fun!

Which site is that?

[plangentmusic]

Originally Posted by Stumbo

Which site is that?

Sorry -- didn't stick. Here ya go. http://www.icce.rug.nl/~soundscapes/...es_canon.shtml

[b4nny]

Correct me if I'm not understanding this correctly, but why use a duplet on two 8th notes instead of just writing it as two dotted 16th notes?