A few questions about modes...

[taygunov]

Hi all, I've been learning modes lately to help me write more complex basslines - and in general to know what i am doing better when it comes to bass, so is it cool if i throw some questions and you guys answer them? Hope so . Here goes...

1) Is Ionian just the scale I'm playing normally? Ex: If i am playing the C major scale the notes are C D E F G A B C, is that concidered Ionian?

2) Do they go in a certain order? As in, is the second note in the scale Dorian, the 3rd Phrygian, etc etc? And is this for every key, or does the order change in other keys?

3) Where can i get all the modes for all the scales? I can't seem to find any online, maybe you guys have had better luck....


Thanks again

[EADG mx]

1) The C Major scale is synonymous with C Ionian.

2) The terms Dorian, Phrygian refer to modes built off a scale. The individual notes of the scale have different names

Usually referred to by number: C = 1, D = 2, E = 3.
Or by Solfege syllable: C = Do, D = Re, E = Mi

I think you're mixing up scale steps and modes. D is the second scale step of C Major. D Dorian is the mode built off this scale step.

3) Wikipedia has a pretty good collection of articles about scales and modes.

[JimmyM]

1. Yes.

2. The order is the same for all keys. Ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian, locrian.

3. You don't need all the modes for all the scales written out for you. Go to each key and figure them out yourself. It's easy and way more rewarding, plus you'll remember them better.

[taygunov]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

1. Yes.

2. The order is the same for all keys. Ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian, locrian.

3. You don't need all the modes for all the scales written out for you. Go to each key and figure them out yourself. It's easy and way more rewarding, plus you'll remember them better.

Thanks, i did want to figure them out myself, but i have absolutely no clue where to start.... What format do they go by? I honestly don't have any idea HOW to find what the modes are for each scale.... any help there?

[taygunov]

- and how do I apply them? Do i just play any note from that particular mode when the guitarist is playing the chord that I'm basing it off?

[JimmyM]

To figure them out, go to any root note, say F, and play the F major scale. Then play the F major scale starting on G, and that gives you G dorian. Start on A with the F major scale, and that gives A phrygian. (EDIT: Forgot to add to keep going until you hit the F octave, then go to each note and do its major scale, then figure out the mode for each note) You can do that in any key.

Your other question is way out of the scope of Talkbass and requires some training and experience to understand. Learn the modes first, then learn how to use them.

[powerbass]

You are going to inundated w/info so get ready. You need a basic music theory book and/or teacher to set you straight - music theory can be a can of worms unless you have a knowledgeable person to help you understand the complexities. Basically every major scale has the same modes in the same order - each mode relates to a specific position in the key relative to the tonic. Each mode is made up of a particular grouping of whole and half steps. Each mode has specific chords that are made up of triads of the scale of the mode. So a C maj, G7 and Dmin7 chord have the same available pool of notes since they are all formed form the Cmaj key yet they sound different because Cmaj has a major 3rd, perfect fifth and a major 7th, whereas Dmin has a flat 3rd, perfect fifth and a dominant (flatted) 7th and G7 has a major third, perfect fifth and dominant 7th. Learning to write/create bass lines is linked to an understanding of what key and chord you are playing in or over. This is just scratching the surface

[Asher S]

JTE must be on vacation without web access

[Asher S]

Here's an older post of mine pertaining to modes, with some minimal edits. This is not the only way to learn modes, and may not be the best way but it's how I learned modes, which opened my eyes to a number of cool chord progressions, harmony, and intervals.

Originally Posted by Asher S

Below is an older post of mine you might find of interest. To answer one of your questions, you can go a long way knowing just the I, II, and V modes, as well as the blues scale (minor pentatonic with a flat 5 added in). I also like to mesh the blues scale over the Dorian & Mixolydian for some added textures when improvising. Note that the Dorian and Mixolydian differ only by the 3rd (minor in Dorian, major in Mixolydian). It can be interesting shifting back and forth between major and minor 3rds.

Learn about "chord-scale compatibility", i.e., the C major scale is the Ionian scale (I) C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C, ... the II scale in C major is the D Dorian scale (D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D), and so on with III (Phrygian), IV (Lydian), V (Mixolydian), VI (Aeolian), and VII (Locrian)

Learn these scales and practice shifting between them keeping in mind where you are relative to your root key, or KEY CENTER (i.e. I, II, V, etc). Practice intervals, arpeggios etc across these scales, ascending, descending, also ascending on only 2 strings up 2 octaves, then descending down a different area of the fretboard. Hours of fun. PLUS, you'll see interval, harmony and chord patterns and relationships you may not have previously noticed.

This is most easily seen in the chart below. I'm not a professional musician, so anyone more knowledgeable out there: please correct me if there's something wrong here.

The Dorian pattern is offset to the left on purpose, because I want to remind myself to start with my second (index) finger for the Dorian scale. For all other patterns, if the first dot is in the bottom left position, start with the second (index) finger. If there's an open fret space left of the first dot, start with the 3rd (middle) finger. The reason for this is that if you follow this convention, then moving up or down a single string (rather than using the next string up or down) will always have the pattern continue 1 whole tone up from the last note in the 2 or 3-note section of the pattern... This makes it much easier to move around the fretboard with accuracy.




If you like that, then you can download these mp3's that I made last week, and practice improvising to a 12-bar blues progression in any key:
12 bar blues practice mp3s, all 12 keys

[MalcolmAmos]

Asher - thanks for the charts. Now my question. Just starting with the bass. R-5 and a couple more basic patterns are really all I'm comfortable with - right now. To help with your answer I should mention I play rhythm guitar, keyboard and clarinet ......... I'm still in the shallow end of the mode pond, but if I don't go over 8 inches deep I'm OK.

Hitch hiking on how to use modes. How would you use modes with Country bass, i.e. instead of running a basic R-5 pattern and changing with the chords would you run Ionian over the entire chord progression? Is, I'm asking as I don't know, is not the use of a mode moving into competition with the melody and to be used only when the lead is passed to the bass? And since we are here a few words on the use of pentatonic over the individual chords would be appreciated. I'm having some success with R-3-5-3 while providing basic rhythm and pentatonic would only add one more note (beat) into the mix.

Modes as I know them are for gathering melody notes, not necessarily for providing background rhythm. And then your thoughts on - do pentatonic fall into this same category. Is there a place for pentatonic in rhythm bass?

Comments please.

Malcolm

[Rudreax]

Please, please, please, if you're going to learn modes, takes whatever lessons you get and LEARN THEM IN ONE KEY. So, learn them all first in C major so you can really hear how each one sounds, rather than learning them from different notes in one scale and only possibly hearing them in the context of that scale.

Honestly though, you do not need to learn this kind of stuff until you know as much as you can about chords and chord progressions (especially chord progressions), as these are the things that utilize modes more than anything.

As for how to directly use them...there is no real difference in how you would use them on each instrument because if you understand how to use them on one you should generally know how to use them all on all the things you play. The only way they would be used differently would be in the context of the role you're playing when you're playing music, but even then the basics behind using them would be the same.

One last thing: modes are created and based off of intervals, and seeing them as anything else can hinder you. It's very convenient that modes fall into the same pattern as certain scales (such as the intervals of D dorian or something like that), but in there most basic form you should be learning and understanding modes as a set of intervals, just like a scale (this is why I say learn them in one key, so you can both physically understand and hear the differences between each mode).

[JTE]

Hey, I'm here...

A. Don't bother learning modes unitl you totally undestand the diatonic major scale (meaning you know how to build it in any key, you know what it sounds like, and you can play it in any key over two octaves ascending and descending- note that most people think they "know" a scale/mode if they only do that last part, but that's the LEAST important part).

B. Don't learn modes until you have a simlar grasp of chords- How to build the main 4-note chords, why those notes are in there, and how the chords relate to each other. That means you should know how to harmonze a scale to derive the native chords. You know how to name the chord from the notes in it and to find the notes in a given chord. You know what "ii V I" means. You can find the notes of a ii V I progression in any key. You know that a major chord is 1 3 5, a minor is 1 b3 5, you now a 7th si 1 3 5 b7 and why that's different from both the major 7 and the minor 7.

Then when you learn the modes totally ingore anyone who tells you to play a C scale from D to D to get D dorian. That doesn't teach you anything usefull other than what notes are in D Dorian, and it causes a lot of confusion.

Instead learn the structure. You'll already own Ionian from the stuff above I've recommended. You'll know Ionian is W W H W W W H.

Then learn C Dorian which is W H W W W H W. Play, sing it while you play it, learn what makes it sound unique from other minor scales. Play it against Cminy chord vamps.

Then learn C Mixolydian by learning the whole steps and half steps- do the same thing by playing it, singing it, ect.

And if anyone gives you the flippant advice for a Dmin7 G7 C progression to "use D dorian over Dmin7, the G mixolydian over G7, then C Ionian", run away. That's crap. It's crap because that kind of teaching about modes totally obscures the fact that a ii V I DEFINES a key center and you're better off thinking of a single key and scale than to constantly be shifting gears.

Use modes for playing modal stuff (like Miles Davis' "So What"), but not for playing changes. And don't tackle them with the expectation that they'll solve all your problems if you don't know harmony.

jte

jte

[clayton51]

good advice

[mambo4]

Originally Posted by JTE

A. Don't bother learning modes unitl you totally undestand the diatonic major scale
B. Don't learn modes until you have a simlar grasp of chords-

+infinity. As far as practical playing goes, understanding chords is way more useful than understanding modes.

mess around with modes when your not busy, but study chords.

[Kraken]

Just subsrcibing

[OmegaBass16]

[quote=JTE;7733272]H

B. Don't learn modes until you have a simlar grasp of chords- How to build the main 4-note chords, why those notes are in there, and how the chords relate to each other. That means you should know how to harmonze a scale to derive the native chords. You know how to name the chord from the notes in it and to find the notes in a given chord. You know what "ii V I" means. You can find the notes of a ii V I progression in any key. You know that a major chord is 1 3 5, a minor is 1 b3 5, you now a 7th si 1 3 5 b7 and why that's different from both the major 7 and the minor 7.

So how do I start this learning journey on "how to build the main
4-note chords, why those notes are in there, and how the chords relate to each other"? I want to gain better knowledge about this subject,so what can I practice to help me understand chord theory?

[JTE]

Well, do you KNOW the diatonic major scale? As I've outlined, "know" means a lot more than just where to put your fingers.

A. Know the pattern- W W H W W W H
B. Be able to write out the correct notes for any diatonic major scale (and know WHY it's an Eb and not D#)
C. Know what the scale sounds like before you play the notes.
D. Be able to find the notes for any of the 12 major scales across at least two octaves descending and ascending on the neck.

Once you have that, then start the chords.

There's a LOT of stuff available on learning basic hamrony and chords, but be careful with internet stuff- there's also a lot of wrong terminology, just plain incorrect teaching, and stupid generalizations on the web.

Quick and dirty, you need to learn:

A. There are four basic TYPES of chords- major, minor, augmented, and diminished based on the first three notes of the chord.
B. There are extensions that add color to those chords and change the name of them.
C. When you stack the notes of a scale in thirds, you get specific chords that are native to that key. Because the scales are the same in every key, there's a logic to why certain chords go together.

From that learn the basic chords (all examples in the key of G which is G A B C D E F# G)-

Major chord is 1, 3, 5. It's a major third with a minor third on top. So, it's G B D. G to B is a major third, B to D is a minor third.

Minor chord is 1, b3, 5, a minor third with a major third on top-G Bb D

Augmented chord is 1 3, #5, or two major thirds stacked up. That's G B D#

Diminished is 1, b3, b5 or two minor thirds stacked up. G Bb Db

Common extension add the 7th note, either natural or flatted.

Gmaj7 is 1, 3, 5, 7, and the intervals are major/minor/major so it's G B D F#
Gmin7 is 1, b3, 5, b7, the intervals are minor/major/minor so it's G Bb D F
G7 is 1, 3, 5, b7, the intervals are major/minor/minor so it's G B D F. Note that technically this is a DOMINANT 7, but it's the most common form of 7th so it's most often just called "seventh".

Again, don't just sit down and learn to finger chords. Avoid those stupid charts that show you where to put your fingers. Teach yourself where to put your fingers.

And, the most important part of all of this- SING EVERY NOTE YOU PLAY!!! Music is sound, not a matrix on paper, dots on tablature, nor notes on the staff ('though the staff will let you hear the music!). So every exercise you do, SING what you're playing. And sing the note BEFORE you play it. That teaches your ear what happens when your hands do something. That'll make learning stuff off recordings, playing stuff you hear in your head, etc. a lot easier.

I recommend that you get a copy of Edley's Music Theory for Practical People (here's a link- http://www.edly.com/mtfpp.html).

I love this book because he doesn't assume you play keyboards, doesn't assume that you are familiar with western classical music, and doesn't presume that western classical music is the only application for theory. He also doesn't assume you know how to read music, but it's hard to talk about music of you don't know the language. It's got very clear diagrams and it's written in a non-scholarly tone so it's easy to read and understand. He builds theory up in a logical fashion (something that self instruction on the net often utterly faisl at). Bottom line, it's something I wish was available for when I was teaching 25 years ago.

jte

[BassBrass]

Posting on a mode thread, a moment please for the late George Russell. R.I.P. 7/2009

[Hookus]

I have never taken lessons, and have been playing for about 17 years, but it was only by teaching myself theory the way JTE is suggesting that I truly began to improve my playing. Way to go mang!

[JimmyM]

I'll add one thing about modes...learn all you can and how to apply it, but on the gig, remember that you're playing MUSIC.