Figuring out counter-melodies and rhythms during jam?

[Da LadY In Red]

Hello, I'm in a jam band (1 guitar, 1 bass, 1 drum, 1 keys) and have had a recent epiphany about grooving. It seems that for the most part, the strongest grooves are created when there are several layers of counter rhythms being played. Example, listen to the play between Phish's 97 Island tour funk jams where usually there will be a pretty constant rhythm on the wah wah clav, a counter rhythm on wah guitar, then a bass pattern that hilights the bass drum as well as certain key syncopations in both the guitar and clav. Of course grooves are also possible when all instrument are syncopated on a certain riff ala the Meters, but I'm really interested in the counter rhythms and melodies.

Now, to bring this into real world applications, how to you, when jamming, come up with counter rhythms and counter melodies while maintaining a certain relationship with the drums? I have a relatively good ear and can usually pick up pretty quickly what everyone is playing, but how do I use that data? I've noticed that there's times when I should double the guitar almost note for note (usually when he plays riffs) but on melodies, playing something similiar doesn't really feel right. Sometimes it's good to just hum a complementary bassline in my head, but that's pretty tough to do in the midst of a jam. Should I just try to create a support using the most important chord tones and keep up with the drums or are there good tips for this?

So, any takers on this question? I would love to hear some more experienced muso's take on how to complement an ongoing solo/jam, both with fills and completely new basslines.

[Da LadY In Red]

Also, I would like to add, that the usual way I jam (which I'm trying to get out of), is that I kind of formulate the notes I want to play in my head and play them, but what this does is create a flowing bassline that progresses on its own without really paying attention to the other instruments (besides drums).

[StyleOverShow]

Nothing wrong with a pre-tune formulation but if I get the question right, what is the next step? There are rhythmic accents and for instance in really complicated latin bands the clave holds down the 'point' rhythm in a counterpoint sense (the other percussionists play around the clave).

What I do is look for those accents, either bass drum kicks and/or guitar/KB chording to weave it into a bass line. Sometimes leaving out a beat and letting the other instruments hit it is quite effective (creating a hole) and sometimes accenting the back beat(s) (e.g. any Spinners song - an R&B group from the 70's) can rock each measure back and forth.

The other factor is tonally you may want to lead the listener to the next chord by ascending or descending too. It plays a major part in groove creation in my book.

As always, less is more until you get to be a monster and then dazzle with speed and punch works (generally) too.

-richard

[Fergie Fulton]

Its the old "everyone have their ears on" situation. If no else is listening to whats happening around them it will never happen.
I try to imply different feels and potential structures or rythmns that can be used over duration of the song, but preferably before the end of it LOL.

To that end i will normaly try to have it in place, in the case of just guitars on stage, by the end of his solo because the influence of the guitars is less and you can "bully" the jam, very subtley i must add, in to some new rythmns or grooves with the drummer.

These subtle moves always work best when coming from the back (rythmn section, of bass and drums) as the other instruments in any jam should sit on a rythmn for maximum saftey LOL.

But i'm afraid its trial and error when they work its great, when it doesn't....well we all learn from our mistakes, as do those in the band and those watching.
By that strange thing of listening it sinks in at a sub-concious level and when its tried again at some point all those involved, including those who even if they were watching the last time and now find themselves involved in this jam, get an feeling of "here we go again" and will remember why it was successfull or failed the last time and respond accordingly.

Here's Bluesman Robert Johnstons classic Terraplane Blues jammed, lots of different things going on here, but in context of the jam set up by the guitar.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...deoid=26246348

[Krowser]

I need massive lessons on jamming.

1. What's a counter rhythm?
2. When you jam with your band, do you set a scale, key, or any other parameter or it's juste go with the flow? Because with my band were having some trouble picking it up.

[Fergie Fulton]

Originally Posted by Krowser

I need massive lessons on jamming.

1. What's a counter rhythm?
2. When you jam with your band, do you set a scale, key, or any other parameter or it's juste go with the flow? Because with my band were having some trouble picking it up.

1. A counter can be anything thats broken down with in a time sig. or groove in the same way a counter melody works, its a second or third theme on the theme. The clasic example is the "round" such as this which is one of number of ways to create a counter;

Frere Jacques, Frere Jacques,
Dormez-vous? Dormez-vous?
Sonnez les matines, sonnez les matines
Ding ding dong, ding ding dong.

Which when sung by say four people one starts it and the second starts singing when the first reaches the second line, then the third starts when the second reaches the second line and the fouth starts when the third reaches the second line. They all in effect create counter rythmns, harmonies and melodies from the one song as it progresses and ultimately finishes.
Check the link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqzYXxeG-qA

2. Go with the flow of your instincts and play what you feel is natural. The more you think about what your playing the less you play.
Like it to walking on a low wall you can step on to, easy because all you do is put one foot in front of the other, the natural way to walk. If you do you'll just walk because thats what your thinking about. Raise that wall to 25 feet, the task is the same but now rather than thinking about walking your thinking about the consequences of falling, so walking is much much harder, it becomes un-natural and cautious, because the nature of the task has changed.

Some may call this experience.

[JTE]

Can you execute ideas you hear in your head? If so, then work on being able to develop good ideas for lines. How? By copping what others do that sounds good to you. Duke Ellington, Bach, Duane Allman, Berry Oakley, Miles Davis, Michael Hedges, Wayne Shorter, Mozart, Mike Stern, Lennon/McCartney, Holland/Dozier/Holland, Cole Porter, Rogers/Hammerstein, etc. all have cool ideas so learn from them.

You can't execute what you hear? Then learn melodies, intervals, scales, and arpeggios. "Learn" means not that you can finger them, but you know what they're going to sound like BEFORE you play them. And use those same examples in the paragraph above to learn melodies.

Jamming means that you're listening to each other and letting ideas that others play suggest stuff for you to play.

jte