The Five Scale Forms

[Elite24]

So i just started taking lessons 2 months ago and pretty much the first thing I've learned is how to play all five scale forms of the major scale so that i can move up and down the neck in whatever key i choose. I'm just about fluent on playing every major scale form anywhere on the neck in any key and i know all the major,minor, and diminished chords within all five scale forms. Basically what im trying to ask is how effective is it knowing it this way first and how far along am in learning bass and the theory aspects? I have gotten pretty good at improvising and playing along with songs using this method but am i boosting my progress my mastering all five scale forms and the chords that go along with it?

[Spin Doctor]

Which 5 scale forms are you referring to? Being fluent in anything after 2 months is quite the accomplishment. Congrats.

[Elite24]

It's pretty much the extended Major Scale so say i start with G on the E string i can play every note in the G major scale anywhere on the fretboard. This also allows me to automatically know all the modes bc they are built into the major scale. And thanks i've been working hard.

[E2daGGurl]

I'm still confused by what you mean by 5 scale forms - but yes, knowing how to run up a major scale anywhere on the fretboard is an accomplishment.

Sounds like it's time for arpeggios.

[Elite24]

sorry that's just what my teacher calls but it may be called the CAGED system too? But say i'm on the E string playing the G Major scale- Starting with the G i play the basic major scale which is also the Ionian mode. The next note would be A so i go to A on the same E string and play that scale all the way up which could also be referred to as the Dorian mode. Then i go to B on E string and play up using all the notes still in the G Major scale. This can also be called phrygian mode. I'm sure you get the point now but ya it's just a pattern that allows you to play whatever key you want anywhere on the fretboard. I also know where all the major, minor, and diminished chords/arpeggios are using this form.

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by Elite24

So i just started taking lessons 2 months ago and pretty much the first thing I've learned is how to play all five scale forms of the major scale so that i can move up and down the neck in whatever key i choose. I'm just about fluent on playing every major scale form anywhere on the neck in any key and i know all the major,minor, and diminished chords within all five scale forms. Basically what im trying to ask is how effective is it knowing it this way first and how far along am in learning bass and the theory aspects? I have gotten pretty good at improvising and playing along with songs using this method but am i boosting my progress my mastering all five scale forms and the chords that go along with it?

That stuff came easy to me too (believe me I've had my musical issues but I saw that stuff fast). I've found the exercizes involving chord tones over changes to be beneficial.

So staying in key and wailing came quickly, even modulating, it is, and was playing through changes where I slowed in my learning process. Reading lines that don't fall perfectly in those boxes will help in transitions and jumps, and help you stretch out.

Good work. and Good Luck!

[Elite24]

Thanks for the advice and when you say practice chord tones over changes you mean playing lets say a I IV V progression and only using the notes of the chords within the progression?

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by Elite24

Thanks for the advice and when you say practice chord tones over changes you mean playing lets say a I IV V progression and only using the notes of the chords within the progression?

Yes, best done slowly, so you can think, if they are easy, there are tricks to do to make them difficult, i.e. not starting on roots etc. This will also help you really hear the modes. You'll then be able to hear the other notes in the scale as extensions of the chord tones or passing tones. You never want to sound like you are running scales.

I do these through various tunes when looking them over. Even familiar stuff, I'll sometimes do something 'throw a wrench' into my thinking to try to play a different way. This is after all a lifetimes worth of work.

[MalcolmAmos]

I had to go back and check that you were using a bass guitar. What you have outlined is what a 6 string guitar player would be doing. Is your instructor a 6 string guitar player that also teaches bass? IMO that's what he is teaching you.

The bass is an accompaniment instrument that's responsible for laying down a steady beat and providing a groove. We play melody only when the lead is given to us. Normally a lead break solo is years down the road.

You need to be playing chord tones. Most of us rely upon chord tone interval numbers for what we do.
Over a C chord we would place the Major scale box pattern with the root on the 3rd string third fret and then play the 1 (Root) 3 and 5 degrees of the C major scale (C, E, G). We would use a base line using chord tone intervals like this R-3-5-3 for as long as the C chord is in play then when the song moves to the F chord we would move our major scale box pattern to the 2nd string 3rd fret and play that same generic R-3-5-3 but now over the F chord and be sounding the F, A C notes.


Working toward establishing a groove and holding down the beat. Now we may just play the Roots or perhaps the R-5's or perhaps R-5-8-5 whatever fits the beat and the groove. I don't think what you have been doing is going to help you with what I just outlined.

Only problem --- you gotta trust your instructor -- until you no longer trust your instructor.

Check out http://www.studybass.com/

Here is a little more on the box pattern.
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showth...67#post9372867

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

I had to go back and check that you were using a bass guitar. What you have outlined is what a 6 string guitar player would be doing. Is your instructor a 6 string guitar player that also teaches bass? IMO that's what he is teaching you.

The bass is an accompaniment instrument that's responsible for laying down a steady beat and providing a groove. We play melody only when the lead is given to us.

I was wondering how CAGE works on bass and was afraid to like not sound all knowing or something

[Elite24]

Thank you Amos! I def see where your coming from and i def will keep chord tones as my primary learning objective but do you think that by knowing the CAGED system(knowing where all the notes of a key are) it will allow me to progress up or down the neck easily and be able to play the chord progressions at diff positions. And by saying that I have already learned what notes of a chosen key are major chords and minor chords. It just seems that it could allow me to flow better from one spot to another while still keeping chord tones as the primary goal. I honestly don't think modes when i progress through the whole caged system.

[MalcolmAmos]

OK. Nothing you have learned is waisted. Anything that lets you see the patterns on your fretboard can be used.
CAGED is a 6 string pattern and not a part of the bass. Why? We do not form barre chords. Only reason I know of the get into CAGED is to have several ways of taking a chord up the neck.

Basic bass - first year stuff - In bass we either play from standard notation and sound the note the sheet music is telling us to sound or we play chord/scale intervals based upon the major scale box pattern. First position in your five position World. We just move first position to the root we want and then go from there. Yes you can play in the five positions - later - and do your scale work in any of those 5 locations. And your instructor may have a way for you to focus on the CAGED system to see all this. CAGED is not a part of the bass I know.

Get your instructor to tell you how this CAGED system is going to help you lay down a groove. In bass it's the groove, melodic solos are extra on top of our basic responsibilities.

Sorry I have no idea why he is taking you to CAGED.

[Elite24]

Ok and thanks for the advice! I know i still have many many more years of learning to do. I just wanted to make sure I'm on the right track.

[BillyIVbass]

If you're playing pop music (popular, I'm not talking dance club music) if you've learned your major scales, next I'd

Learn triads and 7th chords off of each scale degree:
I Cmaj7
ii Dmin7
iii Em
IV Fmaj7
V G7
vi Am7
vii Bm7-5

Run that through ALL your major keys A Bb B C Db D Eb E F Gb G Ab. You have a very solid start on bass playing.

The cage system is an OK tool, but the goal is to picture a fretboard in your head and be able to do all the work there.

[Elite24]

Thanks!

[JTE]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

OK. Nothing you have learned is waisted (sic). Anything that lets you see the patterns on your fretboard can be used.
CAGED is a 6 string pattern and not a part of the bass. Why? We do not form barre chords. Only reason I know of the get into CAGED is to have several ways of taking a chord up the neck...
Sorry I have no idea why he is taking you to CAGED.

CAGED is NOT only about barre chords. On six-string guitar you use the barre chord shapes to relate to fingering patterns for the major scale, but CAGED is all about the SCALE, not the chords. In fact, one of the CAGED chord shapes is kinda rare and almost pointless. But, the concept of knowing where the notes of the major scale are starting anywhere on the neck is vital and critical for bassists. AND, if CAGED is taught correctly, you'll be working the arpeggios of the chord along with the scale shape.

I think CAGED (though, like modes, is often taught horribly wrong) is a vital and useful visualization of the neck, and the logic of the fingerboard. Too many people learn bass and guitar and only see the scale from root to root. But in the real world we play music, not scales. So learning that the diatonic major scale for the key of G starting at the 8th fret on a bass begins with the C note (and knowing it's the fourth) is priceless knowledge. If I know that's the fourth, then the fifth (one of the most important notes a bassist needs) is at the 10th fret, and the root is on the 10th fret of the 3rd string.

So use what your teacher has given you, it's not wasted at all. As you play the CAGED shapes, however, do three things that'll help you more than anything else you can learn. First, SING the note before you play it- this trains your ear to hear the intervals and makes the scales music instead of a physical exercise. I advocate singing EVERYTHING you play for this reason. Second, don't just run the scales, but say the note and scale degree. For example say "C, the fourth of G major" while singing the pitch, then "D, the fifth of G major". Third, after running the scale, play the major chord arpeggio for that CAGED shape too (again, singing and saying what you're playing). This reinforces the chord tone basis that you'll need to provide as bassist.

John

[Billnc]

+1

JTE your advice is of course very sound. I've preferred to use Jimmy Bruno's method of calling the patterns by the scale degree they start on.

[Elite24]

You hit it right on JTE. Thanks! Ear training is def something i need to improve on