Free lesson: interpreting chord symbols

[bassandbeyond]

I just posted a new lesson on my site to help people decipher all those pesky chord symbols. Please let me know if it helps.

[onlyclave]

C7sus4 and C11 are two different chords.

[Richard Lindsey]

I would disagree with the idea that expressions like "Cm7" are not recommended. That's still the most common way of indicating a minor 7th chord that I come across, and frequency of use should be taken into account. I understand the argument from consistency and the wish to avoid any possible confusion with M7 (which I agree is not recommended), but still....

Also, my understanding of a C2 has always been that it is not the same as a C(add2) or a C(add9). A C2 would use a 2 in place of a 3, not in addition to it. But maybe that's just me.

[MalcolmAmos]

I've bookmarked it. Thanks. Recognizing basic stacked chord notation should take me to another level.

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

I would disagree with the idea that expressions like "Cm7" are not recommended. That's still the most common way of indicating a minor 7th chord that I come across, and frequency of use should be taken into account. I understand the argument from consistency and the wish to avoid any possible confusion with M7 (which I agree is not recommended), but still....

Cm7 and CM7 should never be used. Cmi7 and Cma7 convey a clear message that can't be screwed by a copyist's sloppy handwriting. It's just lazy.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

Cm7 and CM7 should never be used. Cmi7 and Cma7 convey a clear message that can't be screwed by a copyist's sloppy handwriting. It's just lazy.

I agree about CM7, but Cm7 is very common and well understood. I see it much more often than any of the alternatives. Its usage has nothing to do with laziness and everything to do with frequent practice. If CM7 is shunned as it should be (nobody I work with ever uses it, and printed sheet music does so *relatively* rarely IME), Cm7 never carries any ambiguity. Cm is quite common as well.

I don't have a problem with mi/ma or min/maj either, but to proscribe the common usage of m for minor, when it's very widely used and understood, seems to me pointless.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

I agree about CM7, but Cm7 is very common and well understood. I see it much more often than any of the alternatives. Its usage has nothing to do with laziness and everything to do with frequent practice. If CM7 is shunned as it should be, Cm7 never carries any ambiguity.

I think that the ubiquitous use of "jazz font" has caused Cm7 to fall out of favor, since the jazz font uses only capital letters and creates ambiguity where there may not have been any in the past.

[nothumb]

my jazz prof taught, and thus i have always used, m7 for minor 7, a delta (triangle) for maj7, and just plain 7 for a dominant.

Cm7
C7
C(delta)

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Febs

I think that the ubiquitous use of "jazz font" has caused Cm7 to fall out of favor, since the jazz font uses only capital letters and creates ambiguity where there may not have been any in the past.

True, to a point. If you also include *small caps*, which are really used as alternative forms of lowercase letters. But the use of M7 has never IME been anywhere near as common as the use of m7 (maj7 having been overwhelmingly preferred), so the risk of confusion has always been overstated IMO. If you expect to see major 7 rendered as maj7, then the use of a small cap "em" for minor is unlikely to throw you. If you never see M7 for major 7, you're unlikely to get confused.

It's also worthwhile to keep in mind that jazz font is not really ubiquitous. Most printed sheet music doesn't use it.

Also, there is the argument from brevity. Many prefer to write chord symbols with as few characters as possible, for ease and quickness of writing. Convenience should be factored in, as well as avoidance of ambiguity.

As I say, I'm not convinced that Cm7 has fallen out of favor across the board, since I still see it a lot. Maybe that's only happening in jazz school.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by nothumb

my jazz prof taught, and thus i have always used, m7 for minor 7, a delta (triangle) for maj7, and just plain 7 for a dominant.

Cm7
C7
C(delta)

My teachers too. To me, arguing that Cm7 shouldn't be used because it's potentially confusing is kind of silly, seeing that it's quite widely used and apparently little confusion results.

[bassandbeyond]

Ha ha, these kind of debates have been going on forever!

As I mentioned in the lesson, there is NO universally agreed-upon reference source for chord symbols. That's why I listed several variants for each chord, INCLUDING notations that I prefer not to use.

m7 has always been a pet peeve of mine. I agree that it is very commonly used, and I think that is unfortunate, due to the chance of confusion. But I DID include it in the chart.

As for C7sus4 vs. C11, I am aware that the 11th chord theoretically has a ninth in it as well, but for all practical intents and purposes, they are the same chord.

I enjoy debating these topics. Thanks for the discussion!

[bassandbeyond]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

Also, my understanding of a C2 has always been that it is not the same as a C(add2) or a C(add9). A C2 would use a 2 in place of a 3, not in addition to it. But maybe that's just me.

I believe that the chord you're referring to is notated as Csus2.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by bassandbeyond

I believe that the chord you're referring to is notated as Csus2.

Csus2 is what I prefer to use as well. All I'm saying is that if you do see C2, IME it's more likely to describe what you or I might call a Csus2 than what we'd call a C(add2) or C(add9). IOW C D G and not C E G D.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by bassandbeyond

m7 has always been a pet peeve of mine. I agree that it is very commonly used, and I think that is unfortunate, due to the chance of confusion. But I DID include it in the chart.

Fair enough. I would just respectfully suggest this: the very fact that m7 is so commonly used is a strong argument that the much-worried-about possibility of confusion is more imagined than actual. IOW, the impetus to do away with m7 may be an answer to a question that few people are actually asking with any great urgency.

[bassandbeyond]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

Csus2 is what I prefer to use as well. All I'm saying is that if you do see C2, IME it's more likely to describe what you or I might call a Csus2 than what we'd call a C(add2) or C(add9). IOW C D G and not C E G D.

I just Googled "C2 chord", and all the chord diagrams that came up indicated a C(add9) chord. But it's understandable to be confused by this one. That is why I labeled it "not recommended".

All of the symbols that I labeled "not recommended" are ones that I consider to be ambiguous, and IMHO, there is no reason for ambiguity when other commonly-used, unambiguous symbols are available.

[onlyclave]

Originally Posted by bassandbeyond

Ha ha, these kind of debates have been going on forever!

As for C7sus4 vs. C11, I am aware that the 11th chord theoretically has a ninth in it as well, but for all practical intents and purposes, they are the same chord.

I enjoy debating these topics. Thanks for the discussion!

Uh no. A C11 includes the 3rd (E) where a sus4 doesn't have a 3rd. It's tertian vs. quartal harmony.

The C11 also sounds like crap because of the minor ninth between two inner voice, but it still is what it is.

Those are two different chords.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by bassandbeyond

I just Googled "C2 chord", and all the chord diagrams that came up indicated a C(add9) chord. But it's understandable to be confused by this one. That is why I labeled it "not recommended".

All of the symbols that I labeled "not recommended" are ones that I consider to be ambiguous, and IMHO, there is no reason for ambiguity when other commonly-used, unambiguous symbols are available.

I agree about the ambiguity of C2, and we've just seen an example of how confusion can arise.

My point, though, is that AFAICS, the same kind of confusion very rarely arises with Cm7, which is not only very widely used but, more to the point, quite widely and accurately understood.

IMO, at this fairly late date, it doesn't seem like a major priority to be strongly prescriptive about solving a supposed problem when it's by no means clear that there is much of a problem to begin with. Thus, C2 is worth worrying about and being dogmatic about, because it's more easily confused. Cm7 is not, and therefore proscription of such expressions may be mere nitpicking and not worth bothering with.

[bassandbeyond]

Okay, in theory books C11 is spelled C-E-G-Bb-D-F. But, in real life, when somebody sees C11, they play C7sus4. Ask any good guitarist or pianist. Once in a blue moon, a composer might actually want both the 3rd and the 11th in that chord, in which case, they would have to specify something like C7sus4-3 or C7sus(add3).

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by onlyclave

Uh no. A C11 includes the 3rd (E) where a sus4 doesn't have a 3rd. It's tertian vs. quartal harmony.

The C11 also sounds like crap because of the minor ninth between two inner voice, but it still is what it is.

Those are two different chords.

Yes, but in practice, if you see C11 (as distinct from, say, C9#11), you are probably likely to play it as C9sus4, and it's not especially rare for C9sus4 to be written as C11. These things may not be technically correct by the letter of tertian harmony law, but they're done, and not just by amateurs either.

[bassandbeyond]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

I agree about the ambiguity of C2, and we've just seen an example of how confusion can arise.

My point, though, is that AFAICS, the same kind of confusion very rarely arises with Cm7, which is not only very widely used but, more to the point, quite widely and accurately understood.

IMO, at this fairly late date, it doesn't seem like a major priority to be strongly prescriptive about solving a supposed problem when it's by no means clear that there is much of a problem to begin with. Thus, C2 is worth worrying about and being dogmatic about, because it's more easily confused. Cm7 is not, and therefore proscription of such expressions may be mere nitpicking and not worth bothering with.

I'm not trying to be dogmatic nor to proscribe anything, I'm just expressing a preference. By the way, IME the most common symbols used for minor chords are Cmi7 and C-7, either of which I'm perfectly happy with. And I have to say that I personally have had problems over the years reading sloppily written charts that used m7. But I'm realistic enough to accept all common variants, that's why I included them in the chart.