Fretless instruction

[DoubleBuck]

Back in the early 70's I had a Gibson EBOL that I loved to play with my records until the pressures of marraige made me sell the equipment. After my retirement, I went to GC to retry my efforts to learn to play the bass and to buy an instrument. I always hummed the bass parts to songs for some reason (and my wife used to remark about that) and I thought it was time to follow the dream. After trying out several bass guitars (and admitting that I didn't know what I was doing), I was given a fretless Ibanez EDA 900 guitar to noodle around with. Instantly I was playing a bass part from a song in my head and felt as the bass was "singing to me". I went to several instructors after purchasing the instrument and they said "buy a fretted bass and we'll teach you--at least one with fret lines." After leaving the last instructor at the music store I saw a little girl carrying a violin and asked "that instument is fretless--isn't it?" I bought a fretted Yamaha because it was cheap, but never did I enjoy it as the Ibanez.
Does everyone need a fretted bass to learn? Did anyone have the same experience? Sorry for the looong post.

[carl h.]

Keep looking for a real bass teacher.

[Grayson C.]

I imagine the countless musicians who learned bass on a double bass wouldn't think so.

Your "instructors" don't know what they're talking about.

Also, Kudos for picking a fretless, I wish I'd done that!

[JTE]

Yeah, the "instructor" is wrong. Bass players (and cellists, violists, violinist, etc.) all have learned quite well on fretless instruments for centuries.

John

[Biddy]

^^^^ yeah, what they said ^^^^

[Earthday]

I'm sure the instructors just didn't have fretless experience themselves. You can learn just fine on a fretless, though I do definitely recommend a lined one to start, while you get used to tuning and intonation. Just keep looking for different teachers.

[DoubleBuck]

Thanks for the comments everyone! I found someone to teach me but we are not sure he is that good at fretless instruction-although a heck of a nice guy and he trys hard. It sure would help if he played a fretless too! I have Warwick fretted basses and a cheap Fender Squier that IS a fretless. I bought a Hal Leonard Fretless book. BTW, the fretless Squier is a good sounding bass that really punches with the Seymour Duncans INMO!

Peace,

Ron

[Chris K]

Originally Posted by JTE

Yeah, the "instructor" is wrong. Bass players (and cellists, violists, violinist, etc.) all have learned quite well on fretless instruments for centuries.

John

John is right. But it's understandable for a teacher to not be comfortable with teaching on a fretless bass. It IS pretty special.

I both enjoyed and learned a lot from Steve Baileys book: The Ultimate Fretless Bass Workout.

[unclejane]

I learnt originally on a fretted bass (started in 1979 IIRC). But, looking back over the years if I had it to do over again I think I'd learn on a fretless to start with.
The fretted is a little more forgiving of bad habits (tho not a lot, don't get me wrong). You can get away with, sort of, all kinds of stuff on a fretted instrument that you don't really notice until you try to do them on a fretless.

When I switched to fretless full-time a few years ago I was shocked at some of the problems I had with my technique, generally in the fretting hand. I basically had to relearn how to play, pretty much. Well I don't sound too much better after all that, but, in my case any improvement is going to be very noticeable. My level of enjoyment has gone up quite a bit at any rate even tho for those who have to listen to my playing it's still not that enjoyable.

Finding instructors specifically qualified on the fretless is tough. We FL players are a little bit the blacksheep among bassists anyway so this isn't too surprising.

Teach yourself if you have to. There're lots of ways to self-instruct and get pretty good results, i.e. videos from the masters like Steve Bailey, etc. I wouldn't let that stop me.

LS

[ChrisMiami]

When I learned violin, they had me put tape on the neck where my fingers should go. As I remember it (I was 5), only the first couple notes needed marking - the rest just sort of happened naturally (I bet the brain does that kinda math without you even knowing it).

You can spot-check yourself with a little tuner. (Keeping your bass in tune at concert pitch will be a good side-effect of one of these: you'll be unconsciously training your ears to know what in-tune "should" sound like.) While playing, just stop on a note here and there and check the tuner - hopefully you'll be 'on' more often than 'off'.

Keep your thumb on the lower half of the neck, and if you have more'n one note to play in a position, put 'em all down at once (if you can without making badnoise)...

Practice pizzicato articulation with your left hand. Don't be seduced into thinking fretless is only for "special" music. Heck, you can even play slap/funk on a fretless bass, man.

"FL players are a little bit the blacksheep"?? No way - more like the ELITE!

Chris

[Billnc]

Use the Simandl to learn fretless, I use 'guitar fingering' but it's still pretty easy to work out. The Simandl covers the entire neck, if its been good emough for upright players for 100 years it's good enough for us. I prefer unlined boards but have had both.

[DoubleBuck]

Hi All, I have a few questions so I hope y'all can bear with me.
I guess it's best to purchase a chromatic tuner--I have a cheapie Korg non chromatic.
Where would you put your tape on the bass?

Lined fretless make sense in some ways but, aren't we supposed to keep our eyes on the music? I get lost when I look away.

When at the music stores, I heard the terms "Yamaha method" (but that seemed to be for the violin) and "Simandl" while waiting. Simandl sounds like an Austrian name-I went to software school in Vienna. Are these for violin or bass guitar?

Isn't the violin tuned differently from the bass? Wouldn't that make a difference where the tape is and if the Simandl will work? I guess I'll google those terms.

I used to be able to find a note on my unlined fretless bass when my wife played one on her Yammy keyboard.

Since I have a fretted Warwick Corvette $$ AND a fretless, does that cause confusion to muscle memory when interchanged at noodleing/practice times? The Hal Leonard fretless book states fingering ON the fretlines, but the fretted books indicate fingering behind the fretlines. Perhaps I should not play one or the other.

Thanks for helping me out.

[DudeistMonk]

Since I have a fretted Warwick Corvette $$ AND a fretless, does that cause confusion to muscle memory when interchanged at noodleing/practice times? The Hal Leonard fretless book states fingering ON the fretlines, but the fretted books indicate fingering behind the fretlines. Perhaps I should not play one or the other.

I'm not really qualified to answer most of those questions but as for playing both fretted/fretless if they are the same scale (ie: both 35" scale) then they should be near identical in spacing. In fact I recall hearing that Jaco used to practice on a fretted and play live on fretless and that that was one of the reasons he was so accurate.

[Vendele197]

Originally Posted by DoubleBuck

When at the music stores, I heard the terms "Yamaha method" (but that seemed to be for the violin) and "Simandl" while waiting. Simandl sounds like an Austrian name-I went to software school in Vienna. Are these for violin or bass guitar?

The Simandl method being referred to is for double bass (upright bass in a classical setting). He might have published a violin method; not sure. It's pretty much the standard for anyone learning how to play the upright, but can, and IMO should be applied to BG. If you work your way through the entire method, you will be more than comfortable with the entire neck.

[ChrisMiami]

Originally Posted by DoubleBuck

Hi All, I have a few questions so I hope y'all can bear with me.
I guess it's best to purchase a chromatic tuner--I have a cheapie Korg non chromatic.
Where would you put your tape on the bass?

It's really where you feel most comfortable. I've seen it across the fingerboard (haha - not "fretboard"!) like fret lines, and I've seen it as just markers on the upper edge (where the dots would go).

I'd probably do the latter - the idea is to take it off asap. With a little chromie tuner you'll be tapeless in no time!

Originally Posted by DoubleBuck

Lined fretless make sense in some ways but, aren't we supposed to keep our eyes on the music? I get lost when I look away.

The trick is to read ahead and know when/where you'll come back to.

Originally Posted by DoubleBuck

When at the music stores, I heard the terms "Yamaha method" (but that seemed to be for the violin) and "Simandl" while waiting. Simandl sounds like an Austrian name-I went to software school in Vienna. Are these for violin or bass guitar?

Isn't the violin tuned differently from the bass? Wouldn't that make a difference where the tape is and if the Simandl will work? I guess I'll google those terms.

You do understand that the purpose of the tape is to let you know where you should be putting your fingers, right? Like removable frets? Not sure how violin tuning might apply.

Originally Posted by DoubleBuck

I used to be able to find a note on my unlined fretless bass when my wife played one on her Yammy keyboard.

Since I have a fretted Warwick Corvette $$ AND a fretless, does that cause confusion to muscle memory when interchanged at noodleing/practice times?

Well, just remember you have to be awake while you're playing. It's like the difference between eating chicken and steak or driving stick and automatic - you'll know it (or should learn it real fast).

Originally Posted by DoubleBuck

The Hal Leonard fretless book states fingering ON the fretlines, but the fretted books indicate fingering behind the fretlines. Perhaps I should not play one or the other.

Well, yeah - the pressure of the string on the fret sets the endpoint of the vibrating body, which produces the sound (the other end is the bridge). Differences in pitch are created by varying the length of the vibrating portion of the string (essentially lengthening and shortening the string) - longer strings = lower pitch, shorter strings = higher pitch. (Assuming a constant tension, that is.)

So, the frets and your fingertips will be performing the same function: setting the size of the string, thereby the pitch. A technique often used when playing fretted is to fret ON the frets, and then there is less difference in muscle memory. But it's really not necessary - if you can walk up different flights of stairs, you can remember where to put your fingers.

"Knowing the path is a very different thing than walking the path." You should get started playing asap. Playing is like programming - the only way you really learn it is by doing.

Chris

[ChrisMiami]

This was a great article:

http://doublebassblog.org/2006/11/ra...mparative.html

Chris

[DoubleBuck]

Hi ChrisMiami,

Wow that cleared a lot of smoke for me-thanks.

I'm ordering the Simandl book from our local music store to check it out. I enjoy learning and this might be an interesting approach. While I'm at it perhaps I'll read "The Suzuki Method too". I'm a retiree and have plenty of time.

I guess the goal sets the plan. My goal is to play "harmony bass" just like the vocals I used to sing in high school--not so much "solo bass" riffs, popping etc. Perhaps this is more orchestral than not. I am still in love with the "vocalness" of the fretless. It still sings to me! You sound like you know what you are doing. Maybe I'll spend less time on the computer and more on the fingerboard-but whatever, thanks for your input Chris and all of you .

[ChrisMiami]

Looking forward to your YouTube clips! Best of luck, Buck! And yes, I agree, the fretless truly does sing! :-)

Chris

[DoubleBuck]

Hi ChrisMiami,

I read posts from Mr. Berlin on the TB forum and got to ask him a question (perhaps you read it too)- "Should I learn on the fretless bass or the fretted bass?" and he said fretted! I guess from your post the fingering doesn't matter so I'll devote "serious study time and practice" to the fretted, and when I'm in a "play with the CDs mood" I'll try out the fretless. It's hard to argue with a player like Mr. Berlin-isn't it? He's earned his place-although he seems controversial. The two Hal Leonard books (fretted and fretless) have another difference in that I believe the fretless spends a lot of time on intonation and ping-ponging two notes in succession an octive apart to check for finger position. Improper finger position even on a fretted results in a terrible sounding buzzy note. Thanx again--see you on YouTube. HaHa

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by DoubleBuck

It's hard to argue with a player like Mr. Berlin-isn't it?

No, not particularly.