fretless intonation and practicing w/ headphones

[jweiss]

Wasn't quite sure where to post this...

I've been practicing a solo transcription on my fretless over the last few weeks through my computer headphones at home, playing along with the recording. I thought it sounded pretty damn tight. I go my lesson at my instructor's house and play the solo through his amp along with the recording on his stereo, and ack! My intonation sucks in the upper registers. Can't figure it out since it sounded fine at home.

So I go home and start playing through my amp, and what do you know, same crappy intonation in upper registers. Next week I tell my instructor about this, and he says, "Oh yeah, don't practice through your headphones if you are working on intonation, you can't hear the interference of the sound waves between your bass and whatever source that you are playing along with."

This is the first time I've heard this. Of course I never had any problem with this when playing fretted through the headphones. It makes sense, and since playing through my amp my intonation is getting much better. Just curious if any other fretless players have observed this?

[Erick Lam]

No I haven't and I've practiced through headphones all my life. Does the music you play along is in the headphones too?

[jweiss]

Originally Posted by Erick Lam

No I haven't and I've practiced through headphones all my life. Does the music you play along is in the headphones too?

Yes.

[MarkTAW]

Vocalists have a huge problem going from live performance into the recording booth. Headphones screw up the way they hear themselves. Headphones really aren't the same.

To practice your intonation get The Tuning CD and play along to it. The Intonation Helper is a free alternative, but IMHO only about half as good - but it's fee and will give you a taste of what this technique can do for you.

[jweiss]

MarkTAW - thanks very much for your post. Interesting to hear that about vocalists.

I looked at the links - if these items are designed to provide drone notes of different pitches, I typically generate those on my computer, using Band in a Box or one of several other programs. I do agree that playing scales and other exercises with drone notes is a big help for intonation! And of course I'm going to stop using the headphones when I do it

Cheers,

Jeff

[MarkTAW]

I wonder what the Band in a Box drones are like. I've been collecting them for a while, and have generated a few of my own. The Tuning CD version is still the best, IMHO.

These tones aren't the same as simple drones, their overtone series is specifically tuned to help you hear when you're in tune or not. Is that what Band in a Box does?

[jweiss]

Oh, I didn't realize there was something different about the drone tones. In band in a box there is a tuner, and it will generate whatever tone you want. Here is a screenshot:



It will generate either sine waves or "complex waves" (which are the default. Is that what you mean?

Here's what the BIAB Help says about that:

"Wave Shape Sine wave is a very pure wave which only contains the listed fundamental frequency. Complex is a filtered Ramp wave, which contains the fundamental tone plus a healthy dose of even and odd harmonics.

The Complex wave may be easier to tune against, since guitars and other instruments usually have a broad mix of harmonics. Complex wave may also be less tiring to the ear.

In the low bass range, the sine wave can be difficult to hear unless you have a very good set of monitor speakers."

Hope that helps,

Jeff

[MarkTAW]

Could be - and it does say it's easier to tune against.

Why not just download the MP3s and see if it helps...

[jweiss]

Thanks, I'll give them a try!

[Deacon_Blues]

Funny, I never noticed that. I play fretless along to records from time to time using headphones. When I practice with headphones, I always have have my bass rather loud so I can clearly hear what I play over the songs. Mostly, I use a sound with lots of midrange and only the bridge pickup. That allows me to cut through the mix even better, which is good for practicing purposes.

[Fretless1!]

Originally Posted by Deacon_Blues

Funny, I never noticed that. I play fretless along to records from time to time using headphones. When I practice with headphones, I always have have my bass rather loud so I can clearly hear what I play over the songs. Mostly, I use a sound with lots of midrange and only the bridge pickup. That allows me to cut through the mix even better, which is good for practicing purposes.

I've never noticed that, either. My practice setup is a lot like yours: headphones, loud bass, bridge pickup (Stingray), and rather mid rangey.

OTOH, my intonation above the 12th position. Could use a little work, to say the least.

I never really play up that high so I'm not as good at it as I could be. I don't think it's a headphone issue though.

What do I know? He's the instructor.

[JimmyM]

I agree with the teacher. It is much easier for me to hear my (average-to-poor) intonation through the air instead of headphones. Can't tell you why, though, but I expect it has something to do with hearing the music and bass out of separate sources as opposed to combining them.

[MarkTAW]

It probably has more to do with how the ear/brain works with sound information - it always assumes that a sound source is coming from SOMEWHERE in physical space. It's exceedingly difficult to make something sound like it's coming from in front of you or behind you through headphones alone. (In order to pull that off, you actually have to model the ear.)

To hear a sound coming from *inside* your head is somewhat disconcerting. Music sounds sort of OK coming from headphones because they add reverb to it to make it sound like it's in some sort of room, though a very vaguely shaped large room most of the time.

Part of this is the way various overtones are emphasized in different rooms, depending on their size, shape and what the walls are made of. The note, especially a bass note which can be several meters long, just doesn't have the same chance to blossom in headphones as it does in the air.

But that's just conjecture, I really don't know why intonation is harder with headphones. For vocalists I think it's because they're not used to hearing their own voice that way and they feel disconnected from their own voice. This is why a lot of singers only hold one earphone to their head when they sing - so they can still hear themselves as they normally do.

[jweiss]

This makes sense to me. If you are looking to hear interference between waves with long periods that just may not be easy to hear with headphones.

Anyway, if any of you have drone tones on your computer, try playing one and then playing a note out of tune on your fretless. Give a listen through the headhones, and then using your computer speakers and your amp. The difference is pretty dramatic, at least to my ears (and mine are nothin' special!).

[MarkTAW]

Originally Posted by jweiss

Anyway, if any of you have drone tones on your computer, try playing one and then playing a note out of tune on your fretless. Give a listen through the headhones, and then using your computer speakers and your amp. The difference is pretty dramatic, at least to my ears (and mine are nothin' special!).

You can download some free via the link I provided earlier.

[hunta]

What headphones are you using? How is your signal getting from the bass to your headphones?

Aside from poor bass frequency reproduction in low quality headphones, I can't see how using headphones would affect intonation in any way. If you can't hear yourself enough to intonate properly then that's a problem, but blaming headphones in general? I practice with headphones on occasion, and last I checked every single studio in the world uses headphones for monitoring purposes while recording.

It's kind of like saying iPods suck because all you've listened to one on are the disposable earbuds included in the package. Throw on some E2C's and WOW!

Get some Grado or Sennheiser cans and you'll hear fine. Or use an amp. Just don't blame headphones, that's kind of silly.

[jweiss]

I have Sennheiser headphones, HD280.

Bass -> DI -> sound card. Headphones plugged into sound card headphone out.

Again, give this a try yourself. It's not about not being able to hear my bass through the headphones - I can hear it just fine. It's about detecting differences in pitch between two sources that are simultaneously piped through the headphones.

This wasn't me blaming my headphones, it was my teacher pointing out that it was a problem, and then testing it myself and realizing that he was right.

Cheers,

Jeff

[hunta]

Onboard sound or recording interface?

[jweiss]

Onboard sound card.

[MarkTAW]

There's tons of posts & articles that discuss singers having a hard time hitting the right pitches in headphones.

The theories on why vary & honestly I couldn't tell you why, but with so much talk about this, you have to admit that it is a problem.

THE KEY TO GETTING A GOOD RECORDED VOCAL

A singer sings in tune when he/she gets a good “pitch reference.” The ears, however, are not always correctly “hearing” the pitch.

When music is played loud, a person hears the bass frequencies flat. How Flat? A lot flat - as much as the pitch difference of the next key on the piano and even more. In recording the singer hears the band through headphones. If these headphones are loud and bass-heavy, the singer will try to “tune” to what he/she hears and usually sing flat.

Its interesting to observe that if a singer is off during recording, it is usually because they are flat - not sharp.

The Headphone Mix

It's also vital to keep the mix clean enough to give the vocalist a solid pitch reference. A muddy headphone mix can blur the singer's sense of pitch. If a singer is having intonation trouble, I listen for elements that might be causing the pitch confusion. By pulling out an instrument or two, you can often clean up the mix and make life better for everyone.

Another important factor is how loud the singer's own voice will be relative to the rest of the mix. Whether due to vanity, hearing impairment, or just force of habit, many singers like their voices to be incredibly loud. Others prefer them lower. Regardless, the first thing to do is ask! Don't guess or do it the way the previous singer liked it. Ask what they want and give it to them. The same goes for reverb. Some singers want lots, others none, and others might want delay. Again, ask and make it so-it's always time well spent.

Headphones- In the Ear V's Traditional Cup? (forum thread)

Intonation.. by that I mean matching my voice to the music, as I listen to what I've recorded and add a vocal track. I hear my voice much differently with the in-ears than with the cans. I usually need to put more of my voice back into the mix, into the in-ears, as I sing. With the headphones, I just listen to the music and keep my voice out of the mix into the headphones.

The Perception of Pitch Waver in Synthetic Vowels Heard Over Headphones and Loudspeakers.

Abstract : The waver was more easily detected when heard over a loudspeaker than over headphones. Measurements indicated that in a live-room environment there were amplitude fluctuations in the vowels, in addition to the intended pitch modulation, and that the combined modulation was better detected than the pitch changes alone. Waver was detected better for vowels than for pure tones.

Not using headphones

From: Patent Tactics, George Brock-Nannestad

Dave Bradley observed:

.............
>
> I noticed years ago that when I was removing headphones while the
> program was still playing that there was a dopler-like shift in
> pitch. The shift stayed in place, though, even when I held the
> headphones still. It seemed that the distance affected the pitch, not
> the motion of moving them away. I have to wonder if there is
> something involved on a smaller scale that makes the sound slightly
> higher in pitch when it's closer to the ears. That might explain why
> people would sing not in tune when using headphones....

----- this is a well-know phenomenon, at least by acousticians. S. S. Stevens
described this as early as 1948. We cannot reproduce his graph here, and the
curves are not linear, but let me read some figures off it:

5 kHz increases 6% in perceived pitch going from 50 to 90 dB
2 kHz is not much influenced
300 Hz decreases 6% in perceived pitch going from 50 to 90 dB

(these percentages are about a semitone!)

above and below these, the effects are more marked.

This explains a lot of things, such as perceived distortion and Dave's
observation.

Kind regards,


George

Closed Headphones vs Open Headphones, I think I know which one is for which one

As far as headphones and singing in my experience everyone is different. What I do know is that the mix in the phones can have a lot to do with the singers ability to hit the pitches, some like their vocals up and some like the music up so it pays to work to get the singer comfortable.