Fretless playing - how far off sounds off

[Depth_Charge]

Dumb question but when playing fretless (or fretted I suppose), is there a range you can be out of tune by before the ear picks it up?

The reason I ask is I finally tried hooking my fretless up to a tuner to play through some scales and the results were less than encouraging, except I learned that the markers and my fingers were next to useless in producing accurate notes

On a side note, it's kind of funny playing scales in eights and sixteenths at high BPM on my fretted ESP, then not being able to play half and quarter notes at 60bpm on the fretless! Quite humbling, and disheartening.

[BassChuck]

It depends on the music and the other sounds. If you are playing to some kind of electronic sounds (like a MIDI file or Band in a Box) being off just a little can be noticed. If its a live ensemble you might find a bit more tolerance. When I play with a big band (5 sax, 4 trumpets, 4 trombones, rhythm section) the pitch center is a bit bigger and so if a miss a little it seems to be OK. Studio work with sequences... gotta be spot on.

But this is just speculation. Really, you owe it to yourself as a musician to be as in tune as possible all the time. It takes practice.... lots of it..... and if you put the fretless aside for a day or two, you'll probably notice the lack of practice.

[rpatter]

Another thing to consider is the necessity of having your bass properly setup. My pitch is generally pretty good, but I have a really hard time playing in tune when the intonation goes out on my bass.

Ralf

[Rickett Customs]

Originally Posted by Depth_Charge

Dumb question but when playing fretless (or fretted I suppose), is there a range you can be out of tune by before the ear picks it up?

The reason I ask is I finally tried hooking my fretless up to a tuner to play through some scales and the results were less than encouraging, except I learned that the markers and my fingers were next to useless in producing accurate notes

On a side note, it's kind of funny playing scales in eights and sixteenths at high BPM on my fretted ESP, then not being able to play half and quarter notes at 60bpm on the fretless! Quite humbling, and disheartening.

It just takes some time to get the hang of it.
Also, do you set up your own basses?
If so, This is crucial on a fretless (IMO) for consistency.
When I set up mine, (easier to do on a lined fretless, but can be done on an unlined, I use a credit card to "finger" the note, to match my second octave (think 12th fret) and a half step up (think 13th fret).
I believe this to be extremely accurate for me at least (IMO,IME).
YMMY.

[Jools4001]

Originally Posted by Depth_Charge

Dumb question but when playing fretless (or fretted I suppose), is there a range you can be out of tune by before the ear picks it up?

The reason I ask is I finally tried hooking my fretless up to a tuner to play through some scales and the results were less than encouraging, except I learned that the markers and my fingers were next to useless in producing accurate notes

I wouldn't mind betting that if you hooked up your tuner to a fretted bass you would be surprised at how 'off' it would be since very few basses intonate perfectly. Playing through a tuner is quite an exacting test and probably of limited use in a musical sense - unless you really, really want to be within a few cents.

As far as the markers go, remember a couple of things. Even if the bass has full fret lines and is intonated perfectly using the usual 12th 'fret' harmonic compared to the fingered octave method you will find that you will have to play slightly sharp of the fret marker in the first few positions and the markers and notes will only start to line up around the 12th 'fret'. So rather than use the markers as an absolute, use them as an approximate guide and use your ears.

Also, try and work on being able to roll your finger from side to side, that way if you are slightly sharp or flat you can roll your finger very quickly onto pitch without sliding your finger, in fact, that is a quintessential part of fretless playing and gives the bass a lot of musicality (I'm not talking about a big gliss up to or down to a note - that's a nice effect on fretless as well but easily overused).

Ultimately, rolling your fingertips is the technique you need to produce good finger vibrato as on a double bass or cello (you shouldn't be pulling and pushing the string sideways to create vibrato as you would on a fretted), so try to do that.

The vibrato you produce will be very musical....but it will play havoc with a tuner (see what I mean about the tuner being a fruitless exercise)

Originally Posted by Depth_Charge

On a side note, it's kind of funny playing scales in eights and sixteenths at high BPM on my fretted ESP, then not being able to play half and quarter notes at 60bpm on the fretless! Quite humbling, and disheartening.

Yeah, but all the advice says practise slowly and practise what you can't do instead of repeating what you can do - and if you work up your fretless technique playing fretted will be even better

[kesslari]

Good stuff here.
The other good advice I've been given is to play with a fixed pitch reference (e.g., play along with songs, or keep an open string ringing) when practicing. That keeps your pitch honest...

[MarkTAW]

The sad fact of the matter is, electric tuners and fretted basses are out of tune. A perfect fifth is slightly flat of where it should be and the major & minor thirds are way out. Once you start playing on a fretless you expose yourself to these inconsistencies. I wouldn't practice to a tuner. IMHO playing to a tuner could be detrimental.

First, intonate your bass properly. You can use Jason's credit card trick. Use the credit card to play the 12th fret harmonic & tune that note properly with the tuner. Then use the credit card to play the note on the fingerboard & adjust the saddles until the tuner gives the same note for both.

Make sure the instrument is in tune.

Then familiarize yourself with the harmonics on the bass. Play the harmonic & then play the note it represents, or v.v. play the note and then play the harmonic to check yourself. You can check the harmonics yourself in the tuner - if your A string is in tune, the 7th fret harmonic should be an E, but you may find your tuner says it's a bit sharp. The 9th fret harmonic should be a C#, but you may find that your tuner says it's quite a bit flat.

Playing with the harmonics will tune your ear to the true intervals* and not to the "tempered" tuning we use today. You'll naturally adjust to the equal temperament system when playing with other musicians, but it's MUCH easier to train the ear to the pure intervals than it is to tempered systems.

Finally, I highly recommend The Tuning CD to tune your ears. The free Intonation Helper is a similar concept, but IMHO not as good. You play along with it - slowly at first, and learn to hear where the intervals are & what they sound like. Sing along to it too, since your voice is your first & most natural instrument.

If you go back to using an electric tuner, use it to train your ears to the sounds of sharp & flat rather than depending on it to tell you what intervals should sound like.

* true intervals are small numbered ratios of each other. The fact that the two notes sound in a ratio to each other is what makes them harmonious. In a related matter, the fact that you're playing exactly 1/2 or 1/3 or 1/4 of the string is what makes the harmonics sound out. Here are the first 5 ratios - as you can see they're all you need for making simple chords, and in odd pairings, for complex chords (e.g. two minor thirds for a diminished 5th and two major 3rds for an augmented 5th).

1:1 = unison
2:1 = octave
3:2 = fifth
4:3 = fourth
5:4 = major third
6:5 = minor third

What Jools mentions is an artifact of the physics of getting fat strings to move, and can be corrected into an equal temperament by something like the Earvana or Buzz Feiten systems. But being a fretless player, you won't need that, will you?

[Depth_Charge]

Hey thanks guys, this stuff is golden!! I won't thank any one person for their contribution in case I forget someone, but I will save the content of the thread!

First off, no I don't do my own setups/intonation on any of my basses. The fretless is the most expensive bass I own - Tony Franklin Fretless P (black on black...beautiful bass) - so I'm reluctant to work on it myself in case I bust it.

Plus, I've got 3 young kids - all of whom are free to pick up an instrument and play it (I have a few lying about...drums, 3 basses, a 6 string can't and don't play, and a keyboard lol).

So the fretless practically lives in it's case as it's easier to just grab a fretted one the kids can abuse. The end result of course is that I never build any consistency with my fretless technique, and just kind of play with it as a side interest more than anything, despite wanting more from it. Lately I've even considered selling it as a result of not playing it enough to justify owning it - I've had it close to 18 months and it still has the plastic protective film on the pickguard LOL!

One of the primary problems I noticed when using the tuner is my left hand technique is pretty poor. Sure, it gets me by, but I tend to just lay the whole pad of my finger on the string, not the tips. Plus I rest my thumb parallel to the neck rather than curl my hand "around the orange" properly. As a result, when using the tuner I found it much harder to correct the notes with my poor technique. But I did pick up on the better/proper technique and changed it during my tuner exercise ...I did notice both an improvement in my ability to fix slightly off notes, as well as recognising the potential for playing faster and cleaner runs using my finger-tips and correct technique. I'm pretty sure playing with my fingertips also improved my tone as well!!

So technique is an area I am seeking to always improve (10+ years of bad habits) but of course when I play with my band or jam covers at home I tend to let my mind go and revert back to my poor habits, so it's always a case of 2 steps forward 1 step back for me

The guitarist in my band has a Zoom recorder and since I usually can't hear a problem when I play the fretless with the band, I'll ask him to record a few songs next time both the fretless and the recorder are in the studio, so I can listen to it objectively later and decide how off it actually is.

Thanks again guys, you rock!!

[matthewbrown]

Remember, too, that pitch perception differs from person to person and situation to situation. I'd been playing fretless for years and switched to URB; my teacher noted that I corrected my playing for pitch, and said the main problem for most of his students was simply that they didn't HEAR that they were out of tune. Playing fretless will help you develop better pitch acuity, because you'll be spending so much time listening for your pitch accuracy and correcting for it. Singing does the same thing.