fretless and upright

[Attenergy]

My Good People of the Bass Forum,

I am a beginner (6mos) and chose the fretless bass as my weapon of choice ... this weekend I was in Sam Ash Bass shop and saw a NS Design 5 String electric upright ... I want to purchase it. My Question is, being a "newbie", do you guys think it is to monumental of a task to try to learn the both of these instruments at one time?!?! Should I become more proficient with the fretless I have first before moving on to the upright?!? Or would I grow slower but consistent if I work on both of them everyday?!?!

What would you guys do?!?!

[KayCee]

Originally Posted by Attenergy

My Good People of the Bass Forum,

I am a beginner (6mos) and chose the fretless bass as my weapon of choice ... this weekend I was in Sam Ash Bass shop and saw a NS Design 5 String electric upright ... I want to purchase it. My Question is, being a "newbie", do you guys think it is to monumental of a task to try to learn the both of these instruments at one time?!?! Should I become more proficient with the fretless I have first before moving on to the upright?!? Or would I grow slower but consistent if I work on both of them everyday?!?!

What would you guys do?!?!

Well, you'd have your work cut out for you, that's for sure.

First, you should be taking lessons on bass guitar right now, from the best teacher you can find in your area. This will ensure that you're not getting into bad habits with your technique, and that you learn theory while learning bass.

Now, if you choose to buy the upright, whether it's electric or not, I STRONGLY suggest that you find a good teacher from Day 1. The techniques are not interchangable on the two, and no book is sufficient to do the trick here.

Ask yourself whether you have the time and money for all of this, and there's your answer.

Good luck!

Andy

[Attenergy]

Ahhhh!!! As usual, KayCee rides to my rescue! Makes sense ... just love the sound of both but was not sure how monumental a task it would've been ... Thanks Buddy ... can't wait until you get to New York!

P.S. by the way ... YOU ARE MY TEACHER!!!

[chicagodoubler]

DON"T BUY AN ELECTRIC UPRIGHT TIL YOU HAVE A GOOD ACOUSTIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The EUB is a secondary instrument, and alot of people will give you bad vibes if you bring it to their gig. Also, think about how wonderful it will be to get together and play music acoustically with your friends once you have a nice upright. Just like people did since the dawn of time, til amps came out in the middle of the last century.

Acoustic music trumps all.

[KayCee]

Originally Posted by chicagodoubler

DON"T BUY AN ELECTRIC UPRIGHT TIL YOU HAVE A GOOD ACOUSTIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The EUB is a secondary instrument, and alot of people will give you bad vibes if you bring it to their gig.

I disagree that it is a secondary instrument, especially in the hands of artists such as Eberhard Weber.

[DocBop]

I just started playing upright about a month ago. URB and BG are and have to be treated as two different instruments. The scale length is very different so has its own technique. That different technique IMO will also influence how you think about constructing lines. Now again in my rookie opinion what you learn on URB can transfer easily to BG, but not the reverse. URB you must have a teacher there is too many things about posture, fingering, bowing, and intonation that you need a teacher to learn.

The URB you will learn more about music and develop proper approaches to playing. That is because you are learng an instrument that is 100's of year old and 100's of year of refining how to play and teach. You will develop your ear more, sightreading, and musicianship. All skills that will make your playing of anything else simplier and better. But playing URB is a big commitment. Like Rabbath one of the master of the instrument say you need to play scales two hours a day. That is just scales nothing else. URB is a very physical instrument you will be building a lot of hand strength and endurance. So after playing URB playing BG anything on a BG will be a breeze.

I went and bought a used stundent bass I wanted the sound of a real acoustic bass and happy I did. When you learn URB you discover how they are built is part of the key to learning where notes are. Parts of the bass become your reference points. IMO most EUB's don't have those reference points. Since they don't have the body you don't develop the correct posture. Then I hear some EUB don't lend themselves to bowing.

Bowing is the main teacher of the URB. You think you played something in tune, pickup the bow and its a different story. Also the bow won't accept doing things halfassed. You have to the proper way to use it or it can make alien sounds. That starts coming into all your practice to thing right becuase otherwise your wasting time.

So URB is a great instrument, it will teach your a lot about playing bass and other musicianship skills, your BG playing will be benefit from your playing URB. BUT URB is a commintment and question is do you think you can make the commintment?

[tkozal]

Originally Posted by KayCee

I disagree that it is a secondary instrument, especially in the hands of artists such as Eberhard Weber.

+1

yes, it may be a secondary instrument in the minds of most "jazz" guys today. But I get a fantastic reaction to using it on folk-singer-songwriter support gigs...

it is also the main bass instrument in much latin music...


but it is a different beast than a BG, very different...get a teacher....decide if you really want to learn positional db fingering, not be a one finger per fret boy like me!

[grovest]

Attenergy,

The electric upright will be very different to play well than the bass guitar. Scale length, neck shape, posture, action, right hand technique, and more are unique between the two. But, as you already have a fretless BG, you can cop a bit of the upright sound with your current equipment. I would stick with the BG and use the "saved" money on lessons with a great teacher. And if it matters to you, not everyone shares ChicagoDoubler's opinion in post 4.

[chicagodoubler]

NOBODY STARTS ON THE ELECTRIC UPRIGHT.

I play one in the right context, and yes, some people love it.
Just as many hate it. I have had many band leaders specifically ask me to NEVER bring one to a gig again.

How many top level jazz musicians have you seen using one at all? I can think of about 3. How many top level jazz artists have you seen playing the acoustic bass exclusively? I can think of dozens, bare minimum. You ever see Ray Brown playing an EUB? What about Christian Mcbride? Dave Holland? Have faith in our beautiful tradition. Playing the URB well is such a rewarding experience, and plus, you get twice the gigs, immediately.

Everytime I bring my lovely upright to a gig, I get compliments on how pretty it is, and how good it sounds. When I bring my baby bass (EUB) I usually get giggles and even ugly comments. After they hear it, people are surprised, but wow first impressions are important.

If you want an electric upright, wait until you can play the real thing.

Talk to people who make their living exclusively from playing and you'll find that not only am I not alone in this opinion, but you are unlikely to hear any full time professional musicians encouraging you to start on EUB anywhere besides silly bass talk sites.

Besides. Acoustic basses. Just. Plain. Sound. Better.

FWIW, Glen Moore and David Friesen are both lovely players and beautiful people who tour on EUB. I have heard both play both instruments from just a few feet away, and I can personally attest to the beauty each pulls out of both instruments. Both started on acoustic basses. And IMNSHO, both sound considerably better on the acoustic upright bass. You will too.

[KayCee]

Funny, it used to be that jazz players considered the "Fender Bass" (that's what they called it...some old guys still do call it that) a "secondary instrument". "Do you double on Fender?" was the standard question as "Jazz-Rock" became cool with jazz players in the early seventies. Of course, many players (including diehard jazzers) are making a career on bass guitar now, many having never played a note on Double Bass in their lives.

I spent a considerable amount of my career studying and performing on Double Bass, in many contexts. I love the instrument, and understand your passion for it, chicagodoubler. However, for someone in a band that's going to require a "solidbody" anyway, I don't see any reason for them not to get the EUB and take some lessons in proper technique. At the volumes that many bands play, Double Basses often have horrible feedback problems. A decent quality Double Bass is costly, and out of the budget of many players. It is also quite fragile to be used in some of the hostile envirnments rock bands are exposed to.

On the other hand, if a bassist really relates to the EUB, maybe it will propel their interest in making the investment in a carved Double Bass later on.

BTW, if jazz is really all about freedom, shouldn't that freedom include playing whatever axe you want?

[CamMcIntyre]

I highly recommend focusing on bass guitar for the time being. You've chosen fretless-i commend you. Spending the money studying with the best teacher you can afford will be worth waiting to start EUB or DB. Learning from a great teacher is well worth the money and will be more than worth it with regards to your playing-if you put the required effort and time into it.

I'm typical of it seems like my generation [the late teens/early 20s] crowd of doublers.... I started on bass guitar and then picked up and focused on DB for college. I agree that the sticks have their place, but IMO-it's not at the level of acceptance where i'd want to have one of those as my sole DB-like instrument if there's intentions to play jazz or any type of "traditional" music such as folk, jazz, classical, etc. Maybe in a fusiony band or a rock band for an "acoustic" tune. If i want to get weird like that-i'll pull out my DeArmond Ashbory.

However, if you want to play DB and the goal is an acoustic DB.....don't worry about the NS Stick-type EUBs. If you want one because "it's cool"-i say wait 3 months and then decide. I didn't check to see your age in the profile, but i think it'd be a mistake to buy one at this point.

I have only played the NS Design EUBs at Guitar Center-2 occasions that i can recall, the 2nd one was to double to see if i still agreed with my first impression of it. The impression is that i can't stand playing them. Between the sound and the feel-it was one of the few basses that i've played where i didn't think "i could use one of these".

So-my question for you with regards to the NS bass is-what is your tonal goal for it? I ask that question of my guitar playing buddies when they come to me for gear advice. If your tonal goal is for it to sound like an (amplified) acoustic DB-i say look elsewhere, if it's because you like that specific sound-then wait a bit and then get a teacher to study it with.

best of luck.

edit: With regards to the visual appeal of the instrument to the audience-i play at a small place here in Chicago called Uncommon Ground. Walking into that place w/a DB alone is enough to get some buzz going for our group because i immediately hear "Who's he playing with? What is that?" Mainly because the place is small and i end up bumping almost everyone that i pass with my bass on accident. Once our set starts people look at me w/big googly eyes. I'd like to think it's my ummm "rockstar" looks, but it's because the bass is huge and most people aren't used to seeing them up close.

[hunta]

Ugh. I like how the OP's questions were answered very adequately by the first response, yet people continue to argue well beyond that... It's not a war people, this is music. You don't need to try and scare every newbie away from playing DB. If someone said, "hey guys! I want to try and learn piano, so I'm going to get a Casio keyboard" would you all be posting responses like "OMG NO! DONT DO IT!! It's impossible to learn on a Casio!!!! Did Mozart play a Casio???? Did Rachmaninoff play a Casio???? NO!!! If you don't learn on a Steinway grand you will be doomed to failure and ridicule!!!"?

I don't see any reason why you couldn't learn on an EUB. Does a real acoustic Double Bass sound better? Of course it does, but that isn't what he was asking. Is it a wise idea to try and learn BG and DB at the same time when you've only been playing 6 months? Maybe, maybe not, it depends on how much time you're devoting to practice, but none of you even asked that question.

About the only thing you guys are proving here is that people will judge you if you play EUB. And btw, there are plenty of snobby purists who will talk down to you because you use the term "upright" to describe a Double Bass... I believe the quote goes "Judge not lest ye be judged."

Sorry for the rant but this kind of thing is why I tend to steer clear of the DB forums...

[chicagodoubler]

Why isn't this discussion in the DB forum?

BTW there's nothing wrong with learning both at the same time if you work really really hard. Many of the professional players out there work/ worked on both at the same time. Some, like McBride, Alain Caron, and Patitucci, even managed to get good on both...

Even better yet,

Learn how to play the (acoustic) upright well and you'll find the electric to be much easier to play.

check out the "Buddha Rope" Bill Dickens uses- he got into it cuz he noticed that upright players were capable of playing the electric on a much higher level:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kyUCOeUTM7E

kaycee- jazz is about freedom, but bring an NS to any of the gigs I play and you'll be playing for free before you know it.

hunta- who takes offense at the term upright?


And finally, the whole issue about not learning on an EUB is that you will not develop the sound you will on an acoustic. On an acoustic upright, you really gotta pull the string hard to get a good sound. I've played damn near every electric upright out there, and none require the type of force needed to develop a real sound on the bass.

[funkydanbass]

Just my opinion by Ive never liked the sound of any EUB's. They always seem to lack the sustain of an electric fretless, and they certainly don't have the acoustic character of an upright. (Except maybe the baby basses, but that's whole other instrument too!). If you want upright tone, buy an upright.

That said, if the EUB sound appeals to you, and you don't want to buy an actual upright. Go for it. There's enough room in the world for you to play EUB exclusively, as your first instrument if you want. To hell with anyone that tells you otherwise.

The instruments technique could not be any further removed though, so heed the forum advice regarding getting a great teacher. Don't under estimate the importance of technique on the electric bass either...

Good luck to you!

[KayCee]

Lots of passionate input in this thread to a very simple question by Attenenergy!

Just a couple more thoughts on this topic.

I think we agree across the board that an EUB is a different animal tonally than a Double Bass.

My experience is that there is a HUGE difference in the tone and playability of one brand of EUB to the next. Just as with bass guitars, it would be a good idea to play more than one before you buy (you probably have to go to a NAMM show to find more than one in the same building). I will admit that I have zero experience with the NS Design Bass. I owned a Clevinger at one time that had a very nice sound, not boxy like some I've heard.

I also have not seen an ERB that was designed in a way to be played seated, which is my preferred posture for playing. Most have pieces to simulate the upper bout while standing. Some don't, though, and have to be played while they're attached to a stand. I don't know if I'd like that or not.

Also, find one that has the proper arch and spacing the bridge. This is manditory if you ever plan to play arco (with a bow) on the thing, which you will almost certainly be doing if you take any sort of lessons.

I suppose that this discussion could have been in the DB forum, but they've probably argued it 100 times already, and this forum seems to enjoy a healthy debate!

[CamMcIntyre]

Originally Posted by hunta

I don't see any reason why you couldn't learn on an EUB. Does a real acoustic Double Bass sound better? Of course it does, but that isn't what he was asking. Is it a wise idea to try and learn BG and DB at the same time when you've only been playing 6 months? Maybe, maybe not, it depends on how much time you're devoting to practice, but none of you even asked that question.

The physical differences between the EUB in question and an actual acoustic DB are worth the dicussion on that part of the question. Coming from the acoustic stand point-there aren't the familiar "landmarks" of the body to help clue in where you're at on the neck. This is without getting into balance of the instrument, right hand technique, or a whole world of other specifics. Sound is a part of it, but tastes in tone are as varied in the DB world as they are in the BG.

take it easy.

[Attenergy]

these are all interesting responses ... I am really glad I asked because you guys covered some things I had no clue about. I never thought about the possibility of "switching" over to the Double Bass and how that may hinder me etc etc ... I could have never perceived a lot of the information you guys have shared here. This is why I love this forum ... yeah there are a lot of opinions out there but when I read through them, I get a lot out of what you guys speak about. I like all the different perpectives and it helps me make an informed decision. I wanted the NS because it looked close to an acoustic. I chose the fretless because I really wanted the acoustic sound (Stanley Clarke/Brian Bromberg/Charnett Moffet etc) but did not want to lug an acoustic around Manhattan. So ... I do enjoy the fretless and eventually I will be asking you guys how to get even more of a groovier sound out of it (feel free to suggest now) but thought I could take another approach to the Double Bass and sought of have the best of both worlds ... I now see it is not like that. I think for now I will stay with the fretless and master that. If I become great enough on that instrument, no one will turn me down for serious jazz bass gigs!!! Or I'll start my own band!!!

[chicagodoubler]

Unfortunately, no matter how good you are on the fretless, alot of guys will not hire you for a jazz gig. If you really want to be a professional jazz bassist, you need to play both. See the Ask Janek Gwizdala to hear about how hard it is to get called for a jazz gig on the electric. And he's friggin Janek Gwizdala!

You're young still. If you are taught correctly, there's no reason you can't learn both instruments proficiently. I, and many other people on here, played both axes in high school and college, and work on both professionaly full time today. It's such a great feeling when someone asks you if you play the other axe to say "yes, I play the sh*t out of it!"

BTW regarding the fretless-

a couple things that'll dramatically help your progress:
Learn every note Jaco ever played.
Practice with albums, sequencers, pianists, tape recorder, whatever, but use a pitch reference all the time when you practice. Nobody cares what you're playing if it's in the least bit out of tune.

[Attenergy]

Originally Posted by chicagodoubler

Unfortunately, no matter how good you are on the fretless, alot of guys will not hire you for a jazz gig. If you really want to be a professional jazz bassist, you need to play both. See the Ask Janek Gwizdala to hear about how hard it is to get called for a jazz gig on the electric. And he's friggin Janek Gwizdala!

You're young still. If you are taught correctly, there's no reason you can't learn both instruments proficiently. I, and many other people on here, played both axes in high school and college, and work on both professionaly full time today. It's such a great feeling when someone asks you if you play the other axe to say "yes, I play the sh*t out of it!"

BTW regarding the fretless-

a couple things that'll dramatically help your progress:
Learn every note Jaco ever played.
Practice with albums, sequencers, pianists, tape recorder, whatever, but use a pitch reference all the time when you practice. Nobody cares what you're playing if it's in the least bit out of tune.

OK ... Thanks Chicagodoubler ... do you think I should just go for the Double Bass?!?!

[chicagodoubler]

No way man

Play both!

playing two instruments = twice the gigs!!!!!!!!!!

Listen to the voices of reason on here. Get a good teacher. Practice efficiently. Start with simple music. Transcribe. Make us proud.