Frustrated

[edgewise]

I am a beginner, and I'm getting a bit frustrated with learning songs while also trying to keep time. I'm beginning to question whether I'm even going about this the right way. I'm not having fun.

For instance, I'll have a song laid out before me in standard notation. I turn my metronome onto like 60. Then I start reading/deciphering it and trying to translate it to notes on the fretboard while also trying to keep count (1+2+3+4). Since I'm playing it soooo slowly it doesn't sound anything like the song is supposed to sound. I'll then screw up in the first measure and have to start over again.

Is this the right way to be learning?

When I used to just play and not worry about reading/timing and all that, I had more fun. I'm sure my timing stunk, but I wonder about all those bass players out there that never learned to read music. How do they keep time? Does the counting/timing thing become second nature after a while?

ARrrrgh!

[tjh]

at least a portion of your practice/playing needs to be enjoyable ... playing by yourself in general is often less than gratifying, but that is where we will learn and progress ... maybe break it up with some variety ... standard notation w/met for half hour, then your fav type of practice, etc ... ?? ... it is amost crucial that you get together with others also ... if you can find those with just a little more experience or level of talent than you, they will help you to see the need to progress, and at the same time give you a reason to struggle through the not so fun stuff ...

[Sean S]

If you're having trouble with the first bar, work on that first bar for as long as it takes. Start slow, then slowly work up to speed once you start to get the notes under your fingers. If you start at 60, try 1 bar repeated, say, 4 times, then move up to maybe 65, then 70, and so on.

It's like running; you're not going to run the Boston Marathon right off the bat, you have to start with short runs. Take baby steps.

[AxtoOx]

Some people have to work at it harder than others. Some have natural timing and perfect pitch. Don't ask those guys or it will REALLY frustrate you.

I play guitar and bass. Now I'm learning drums. Whole different animal. I don't expect to be great right away. I practice a little, put it down, go back a little. Low and behold the next day I'm a little better and I repeat. Baby steps. Look for a little progress, don't expect to play like Geddy Lee in a month.

If you were happier doing it the way you were, do that for most of you practice time. Go back to sight reading, take a break and go back and forth.

[K2000]

Turn off the metronome until you can read a little bit, IMO. It's more important to play the correct notes at first, than it is to play wrong notes at the right speed. Once you can sightread a song, then try using the metronome.

You can certainly practice with the metronome, but with non-reading exercises for now. Scales, arpeggios, exercises, playing "tunes" you know, etc.

I think you are trying to tackle too much, simultaneously. Just my opinion though, and I am not a music teacher.

[D Von]

Originally Posted by AxtoOx

Some people have to work at it harder than others. Some have natural timing and perfect pitch. Don't ask those guys or it will REALLY frustrate you.

Its the invisible drum machine we carry in our magical gig bags.

[AxtoOx]

Originally Posted by D Von

Its the invisible drum machine we carry in our magical gig bags.

Actually, I've never had to use a metronome.
With drums though, adding my feet into the mix. Wholly Cow. My daughter is a natural. She frustrates me. She just sat down and started playing darn near everything she heard.

[DocBop]

This is rough I slapped it together for another post. Some of it might help.....


Think the problems most have in learning to read and sightread music is they try to do too much at once. Learning to read music involves developing multiple skills and we try to do them all at one time. The various parts are name of note on the staff, the length of note, where the note is on the fretboard, which finger to use to play the note. As you learn to read and on to sightread those skills get programmed into our brain and we do them without even thinking about the process involved. But in the beginning it is best to separate those skills and work on them individually. In general separate the mental skills from the physical skills. As a side note learning a new physical skill usually only takes the body between 10 and 100 repetitions depending on difficulty of the movement.

It has been said to learn a lot of information fast, learn a little information slowly, and that is what we are going to do. We will use two bass guitars to read, your physical bass and that perfect bass we always dream about in our heads. So we start by putting your physical bass in its stand we won’t need it for a few minutes. Now put the music you want to work on, on the music stand and lets get started.

First thing we do is look at the music we play to work on right now. For a beginner that could be one line. As yours skills improve that will grow to the an entire song. Okay go through and say the letter name of each note. A, B, C#, E and so on. Take the time figure each note name out and say it. Could be new notes for you do to ledger lines or new key to read in. Maybe go through the piece a couple times naming all the notes so you are sure you know them.

Next go through each note and say the value of its duration. First what is the time signature, is it one you are familiar with. Quarter note, eighth note, half note and etc. Be sure to name the rests they are even more important than the pitches. As my music teacher would tell us, if you mess up reading the pitch of a note you just add to the harmony and many won’t notice it. You mess up a rhythm and you stick out like a sore thumb. Very important skill to develop is to “See” the beats in the measure, where is one, two, three, four. If the copyist did a good job you should be able to see each beat clearly. Each measure should have an imaginary line in the middle they way it is notated. In 4/4 time you should be able to see the first half of the measure from the second. Note durations are not suppose to cross the imaginary line. For example if beat 2 was suppose to be a half note the proper notation would be two quarter notes tied together. That way you see it spans the first half of the measure into the second half. Now turn on your metronome nice and slow and clap the rhythms of the music. If in a situation where you can’t clap because others are around, then use your finger and tap them or mute your strings and pluck the rhythms on a muted note. Internalize the rhythms, try to memories the rhythmic patterns for future reference.

Now look at the musical roadmap of the song. Where are the repeats, any D.S. or D.C.’s, Coda’s? What about other notations like dynamics, other notation like ritardo or fermata’s. Very important for more advanced students what is the key signature and are there any key signature changes. How about the time signature does it change? Use your finger and go through the song following the roadmap. Once you feel you know the pitch names, the rhythmic durations, and roadmap we are ready to start working on the bass.

Now if a beginner the music many times the music will give you a position to play it in. As we work on reading and learning our fretboard we will start reading in different positions on the neck. As a musician you will have to learn to scan the music choose a position and look for sections that you might need to shift up or down. All things to make mental or even use a pencil and mark on the page. Okay we know the position we are playing in now just like earlier when we went through the music naming the each notes pitch name, we go through each note and name the string and fret the note is on. This is where you can use the bass in your head. “See” find on the neck where that note is, for example C on third fret A-string. Then after locating the note use the bass in your head and figure out which finger is to be used in that position to play the note. So in second position use the second finger. Go through the entire song figuring out where every note is on the fretboard and which finger to use to play it.

Okay the mental work is done. Checked the key signature and any changes. Checked the time signature and any changes. You have named the pitches and the note durations. Figured out the roadmap if any. Then using your bass in your head figured out the location of each note on your bass and which finger is going to play it. Now you can work on the physical skill of playing the music on your real bass. Pickup your bass, set the metronome to a reasonable tempo and start working on the song. Remember to physically keep time somehow, tap your foot, bob our head, bounce your leg, move something it does help to keep time if you move something.

That is the basic routine to use to learn to sightread music. Yes, in the beginning it might take you a few minutes to do the Mental part of working on the music. Like everything the more you do it, the faster you get, it will become something you do in a couple seconds. It is important to note that all good sightreaders do this everytime they get a new piece of music. Go to a recording session and watch the musicians when they get the music. They sit there and scan the music. They usually check out the roadmap since that if very critical, then being experienced readers they don’t just look for things that could be difficult, a tough rhythm, ledger lines, big intervals, double stops. Since in the studio you never want to show fear they will most the time work out those things using their instrument in their head, just like you just did. So practicing this routine and getting it down to seconds is an important skill.

I won’t go into it now, but another thing to separate to make learning to read easier is rhythms from pitch. Pitch and fretboard location isn’t that hard it just happens with daily practice. Rhythms need to be learned like learning to read the words in this message. When your reading this message you are going “p”, “i”, “t”, “c”, “h” okay that spells pitch, okay next word. You might of done something like that the first time you ever heard or seen the word, but you since learned it by sight and sound. Learning to read rhythms needs to be done the same way. You learn to recognize written rhythmic patterns and know what they sound like. Remember earlier I said to look at the measures and see each beat that is why. You spot beat one and what rhythmic word is there, a quarter note, an eighth and two sixteenth. You see it, know the sound of that rhythm and then just add the pitch. As you get better as a reader you learn to read ahead. In general you are learning to read bigger words. Instead of looking for beats you start seeing half a measure, later a full measure and some even more. Good sightreader while playing a measure are looking a measure or more ahead.

To get to that point there are books of rhythms starting with simple quarter notes and rests and progressing to syncopated funk. One of the classics is the Louis Bellison book Exercises in 4/4. Then there are lots of books of transcriptions and Funk patterns you can just clap the rhythms. The faster you learn to see the beats by recognizing the subdivions the fast your will go from reading to sightreading.

[BillMason]

Originally Posted by K2000

Turn off the metronome until you can read a little bit, IMO. It's more important to play the correct notes at first, than it is to play wrong notes at the right speed. Once you can sightread a song, then try using the metronome.

You can certainly practice with the metronome, but with non-reading exercises for now. Scales, arpeggios, exercises, playing "tunes" you know, etc.

I think you are trying to tackle too much, simultaneously. Just my opinion though, and I am not a music teacher.

I agree 100% - get the fingering down so that your fingers know where to go, and then you can concentrate on timing. Break any work up in chunks to make it more manageable.

[edgewise]

Thanks for the advice everyone!

As always, you gave me a lot to think about.

Cheers!

-EW

[iceshaft07]

I would say balance out your learning with playing for fun. That is what I do.

I spent a few minutes learning the Dorian scale the other day, just playing around with it.

Another thing you can do, is rather than read music, make up your own but play to a metronome. Some easy things you can pick up are basic rock themes, and then move on to some more advanced Baion grooves. That way you can build up your finger strength and coordination.

Like everyone else said, don't try to do too much at once.

Good luck, and don't give up! (P.S. Learn how to read tab! It makes reading songs easier for beginners, at the sacrifce of beeing time accurate. If you can, find one that has both standard and tab!)

[Tape]

I've played for three years and I dont use sheet music. I probably couldn't read it if I tried. I use tabs to learn songs. I know this is not how you are 'supposed' to learn, but it works for me. I dont even know the scales(although I am starting to learn them). I have just learned how to play songs that I like by reading tabs. However I know if I plan to write any music, I'll need to learn the scales.

[moogboy]

i dont keep time. i just play the part the way it was on the album. i play Rock. i mean, when you think about it, how many Rock musicians have perfect time and need you to utilise perfect time when playing their songs?

[Attenergy]

I am a beginner and I hear a lot of talk about learn to play songs. Now my question is, "how do you learn to play songs if you don't know the fingering system to accomplish that?!" I thought the practice of scales and chords was to help one gain facility on the intrument and give you a firm knowledge of where notes are on the fretboard and to reach them in the most convenient ways. I am playing the fretless and I know I need to know where the notes are on the board and their pitch. If I just tried to play a song, how do I know I am using the right fingering?!?! What if I learn the song and then I find out that I learned it with all the wrong fingerings?!?! Is that possible?!?! Sooo much to learn!!!!!!!!! I don't want to have to start at ground zero (even though that is where I am now) again because I adopted bad technical habits. This is tough enough with the little bit of time that I have to dedicate to the instrument and I want to be extremely cautious how I am approaching it not to waste precious time.

[DocBop]

Originally Posted by Attenergy

I am a beginner and I hear a lot of talk about learn to play songs. Now my question is, "how do you learn to play songs if you don't know the fingering system to accomplish that?!" I thought the practice of scales and chords was to help one gain facility on the intrument and give you a firm knowledge of where notes are on the fretboard and to reach them in the most convenient ways. I am playing the fretless and I know I need to know where the notes are on the board and their pitch. If I just tried to play a song, how do I know I am using the right fingering?!?! What if I learn the song and then I find out that I learned it with all the wrong fingerings?!?! Is that possible?!?! Sooo much to learn!!!!!!!!! I don't want to have to start at ground zero (even though that is where I am now) again because I adopted bad technical habits. This is tough enough with the little bit of time that I have to dedicate to the instrument and I want to be extremely cautious how I am approaching it not to waste precious time.

There is no "Right" way there are recommned ways, and ways that make sense as you progress in your knowledge of the fingerboard. Guitar unlike piano there are multiple locations for the same note. So it gets in to which one makes sense as related to the other notes you are playing. That's why you don't learn on major scale typically you learn five or more fingerings for a major scale. This is the good and bad thing about guitar fretboards. Where a piano player has to learn twelve major scale fingerings, you could learn one and move it up and down the neck to get all twelve keys.

Part of learning is to learn to look at the neck and decide what is the best fingering pattern to use, or multiple patterns if what your are doing covers a wide range of notes. You look for the highest notes, the lowest note, and where the bulk of the notes lay. Then pick a postion that works. Other factors is interval leaps, timbre, playability.
This is where a teacher can help, watching YouTube, I know I will regret saying this, but TAB. I think that is the only valid reason to TAB , fingering written with standard notation can make for really messy looking page of ink.

On bass typically lines will sit in the Sweet Spot, nut to 5th-6th fret. More modern Pop playing reading between 4th-8th fret works well. People like this area it make shifting to higher or lower notes pretty easy. Then there is 5-string bass and now some of what you might of need to shift down to is now playable up the neck, but timbre comes into the picture.

As I said there is no correct way, there are recommend/common, and most important, what works for you.

[Nappa]

Originally Posted by AxtoOx

Some people have to work at it harder than others. Some have natural timing and perfect pitch. Don't ask those guys or it will REALLY frustrate you.

*haven't read whole thread*

Funny you said that, i'm very good with timing, but do very poorly at remembering no matter how long or how many breaks i take, once i get to a certain point its gets a lot harder for me to learn any further.

[Attenergy]

thank you DocBop ... that helps. I am currently trying to learn all the scales and read all the notes. Sometimes I am getting overwhelmed because there are so many. I started in E and tried to go through the E major, E natural minor, E harmonic minor, E melodic minor, E chromatic, E wholetone, E diminished, E major pentatonic and then E minor pentatonic. Then the next day I moved to F# and so on ... then I was going to go back and repeat them because I was giving only a day and an hour and change to it. With this, I haven't even gotten to the modes, chords, aprppegios etc I wanted to learn this so I could eventually get to PacMans scale system. I want to be very proficient on the instrument and need lot's of guidance. You guys are basically my teachers. My schedule is very erradic and it is hard to have a teacher on a regular basis and at the same time I no longer want to prolong my dream! I just want to make sure that I am attacking the instrument in the smartest way and take advantage of the wealth of knowledge you guys so freely share. I want to play jazz at a high level so anything you can do to help me as so many of you guys have would be greatly appreciated. I know they say I need to learn all keys but are there specific/common keys to Jazz?!?! And can you expound more on the "sweet spot" of the Bass!

Thank all of you guys in advance for your help!

[morf]

Did you try tapping your foot to the bass drum in the songs you play? It helps me alot when the timing is tricky.

[BassChuck]

'Common Keys to Jazz'

I suppose there a some keys that are used more than others. C, F, Bb, Eb, G might be examples. But really the harmonic language of jazz is complete enough that in the course of playing in only a few 'keys' you'll touch on scales from nearly every key. This is one of the main difference between jazz and rock, with rock (R+B and Pop et etc), if you are in the key of C there are probably only about 6 or 7 chords that will be found. In jazz that is very different. In Jerome Kern's "The Song is You" there are 18 or more different chords and at least 2 different key centers (this is open to interpretation).

So, learn all the keys, you'll be glad you did.

[Attenergy]

Thanks BassChuck ... I will continue to learn and practice them all. What do you think of my approach to practicing the scales?!?! Am I on the right track?!?!