frustration with this scale...

[gorskkr]

Hello,

I'm a new bassist that has switched over from many years playing guitar. I was never one to read up on theory or play scales etc.

Ever since I began playing bass I decided to learn scales and immerse myself in music theory to become the best bassist possible. So far it's been smooth sailing and very rewarding until now...

I've mastered the diatonic major scales of E & G, and I feel very comfortable in figuring the others out should I need to. However, it's just come to my attention that most guitarist/bassists use the major/minor pentatonic when soloing/creating lines etc.

The major pentatonic is no problem for me as I have the major diatonics' down well. I know that you remove the 4th and 7th scale degree. My problem is the minor pentatonic is giving me problems. I go to websites that will display whatever scale you want them to and how they derived the minor pentatonic is eluding me for some reason. So now all I'm doing is searching for a good explanation and I'm not getting anything good.

I need things to make sense logically in order to really absorb. So something that most people say like, "well play 5-8, 5-7, 5-7, etc..." is going to be no use. Bc I'm trying to understand the reasoning behind it, not simple regurgitation.

[phmike]

Major type scales 

Major        R 2 3 4 5 6 7   (W W H W W W H)
Maj Pent     R 2 3 5 6
Maj Blues    R 2 b3 3 5 6
Mixolydian   R 2 3 4 5 6 b7
Lydian       R 2 3 #4 5 6 7

Minor type scales 

Natural      R 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7   (W H W W H W W)
Min Pent     R b3 4 5 b7
Min Blues    R b3 4 b5 5 b7
Harmonic     R 2 b3 4 5 b6 7
Melodic      R 2 b3 4 5 6 7
Dorian       R 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Phrygian     R b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
Locrian      R b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 R

[MalcolmAmos]

phmike and I posted at the same time --- little more of the same.

Originally Posted by gorskkr

Hello,

I'm a new bassist that has switched over from many years playing guitar. I was never one to read up on theory or play scales etc.

Ever since I began playing bass I decided to learn scales and immerse myself in music theory to become the best bassist possible. So far it's been smooth sailing and very rewarding until now...

I've mastered the diatonic major scales of E & G, and I feel very comfortable in figuring the others out should I need to. However, it's just come to my attention that most guitarist/bassists use the major/minor pentatonic when soloing/creating lines etc.

The major pentatonic is no problem for me as I have the major diatonics' down well. I know that you remove the 4th and 7th scale degree. My problem is the minor pentatonic is giving me problems. I go to websites that will display whatever scale you want them to and how they derived the minor pentatonic is eluding me for some reason. So now all I'm doing is searching for a good explanation and I'm not getting anything good.

I need things to make sense logically in order to really absorb. So something that most people say like, "well play 5-8, 5-7, 5-7, etc..." is going to be no use. Bc I'm trying to understand the reasoning behind it, not simple regurgitation.

I relate everything to the major scale box. If I want the natural minor scale I flat the 3, 6 & 7 of the major scale and that gives me the natural minor scale.

Once I have the natural minor scale if I leave out the 2 and 6 that gives me the pentatonic minor scale.

If I want the blues scale I take the pentatonic minor scale and add a b5 (blue note) and that gives me the blues scale.

For example:

Bass Patterns based upon the Major Scale box.

Major Scale Box. 
G|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string
D|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---|
A|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E|-------|---R---|-------|---2---|4th string
Want the C major scale place the R on the C that is at
the 4th string 8th fret and the notes of the C major scale
await you within the box.  Want the A major scale - 4th 
string 5th fret.

Scales - with the major scale as your home base.

• Major Scale = R-2-3-4-5-6-7 Home base
• Major Pentatonic = R-2-3-5-6 Leave out the 4 & 7
• Natural Minor Scale = R-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7 Major scale with the 3, 6 & 7 flatted.
• Minor Pentatonic = R-b3-4-5-b7 Leave out the 2 & 6.
• Blues = R-b3-4-b5-5-b7 Minor pentatonic with the blue note b5 added.
• Harmonic Minor Scale = R-2-b3-4-5-b6-7 Natural minor with a natural 7.
• Melodic Minor Scale = R-2-b3-4-5-6-7 Major scale with a b3.
Let the major scale be your home base then change a few notes and you have something different. No need to memorize a zillion patterns. Let the major scale box pattern be your go to pattern - then adapt/adjust from there.

Generic Notes - for your bass line.
• The root, five and eight are generic and fit most any chord. Remember the diminished has a flatted 5.
• The 3 is generic to all major chords. So R-3-5-3 will fit under any major chord.
• The b3 is generic to all minor chords. And R-b3-5-8 will fit under any minor chord. Why the 8? Well the 8 is just another root in the next octave.
• The 7 is generic to all maj7 chords. Yep, R-3-5-7 fits nicely.
• The b7 is generic to all dominant seventh and minor seventh chords. G7 = R-3-5-b7 or Gm7 = R-b3-5-b7.
• The 6 is neutral and adds color, help yourself to 6’s. Love the sound of R-3-5-6 with a major chord.
• The 2 and 4 make good passing notes. Don’t linger on them or stop on them, keep them passing.
• In making your bass line help yourself to those notes, just use them correctly.
• Roots, fives, eights and the correct 3 & 7 will play a lot of bass.

Playing from fake chord sheet music and a Cmaj7 chord is coming up. You can hang on the root C-C-C-C or visualize your major scale box and play the chord tones of the Cmaj7 chord which are the R-3-5-7 scale degrees of the C major scale. For example:

Basic Chords
• Major Triad = R-3-5
• Minor Triad = R-b3-5
• Diminished Chord = R-b3-b5
7th Chords
• Maj7 = R-3-5-7
• Minor 7 = R-b3-5-b7
• Dominant 7 = R-3-5-b7
• ½ diminished = R-b3-b5-b7
• Full diminished = R-b3-b5-bb7
See a chord and play it's chord tones. As every key will have three major, three minor and one diminished chord it's a good idea to get your major, minor and diminished bass line chord tones into muscle memory so when you see a chord your fingers just know what will work. Now the song may only give you enough room for the root, or root five - adapt and get as many chord tones into your bass line as needed. Root on 1 and a steady groove from the other chord tones plus something to call attention to the chord change will keep you gigging.

Have fun, remember they call it playing.

[Rebop]

This book is great if you want to know a lot about scales.
http://www.amazon.com/GT3-The-Bass-G.../dp/0825821819

It gives you the theory behind the scales and modes as well as countless fingerings for each.
The common minor pentatonic scale is derived from 1, 3, 4, 5, and 7 of the minor scale [in western music]. These scales are found in nearly every type of music worldwide and the reasoning behind these is similar to that of a basic drum beat- simplicity.
These scales are burned into us; into our basic instinct as humans.
Watch this video. Pretty enlightening if you ask me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hodp2esSV9E

[phmike]

My 5-string boxes. I use the scale formulas I posted above, these boxes and knowledge of chord formulas to do all I want to do when playing bass.

Major Scale
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|-6-|---|-7-|(R)|---|---|
|---|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|---|---|
|---|---|-R-|---|-2-|---|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

Natural Minor Scale
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|---|---|b7-|---|(R)|---|---|
|---|---|-4-|---|-5-|b6-|---|
|---|---|-R-|---|-2-|b3-|---|
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[gorskkr]

thanks guys. Going off the R, b3, 4, 5, b7 for minor pentatonic makes sense to me know. However, I have one more question:

Why do they say (and by 'they' I mean people i read online and see on youtube), that you use the minor pentatonic more than the major pentatonic? I play a lot of songs on guitar and then play along with my bass. Almost every song I learn is major- rarely if ever is a song i play or learn in a minor key. So why the heck am I told that I'll be using the minor pentatonic much more so then the major pentatonic?

[Mushroo]

You play the scale that fits the song, not the one "they" told you to play.

This page lists some famous songs using the major pentatonic scale:

http://guitar-music-theory.com/bbpress/topic.php?id=110

And for minor pentatonic:

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/sho...d.php?t=540447

(I just found these lists randomly using Google, I hope the information is accurate.)

If you are in doubt which to play, ask your guitarist or keyboardist for help. Or use your ears. If the scale you're playing sounds wrong, then try a different one.

As you listen to and play many songs in many styles, you will naturally absorb the idiomatic language of each style. Turn on the radio (classic rock station is a good start) and try to listen for examples of major and minor pentatonic scales in famous songs. For example I'm sure you know "Stairway to Heaven"---is the guitar solo at the end major or minor pentatonic? How about "Sweet Home Alabama"?

ps Many very popular songs flirt with both minor and major qualities. For example in blues/rock styles, it might be totally appropriate for the guitarist to solo using minor pentatonic over a major-key progression.

[Sni77]

While hepta- and pentatonic scales are great for every musician, I feel that knowing your triad and 7th chord arpeggios in and out is far more important for a bass player.
I like to practice common chord progressions [e.g. I-IV-V(7)] in different major scale "boxes". That way I practice the different arpeggio shapes, the scale degrees that make up the different chords (e.g. 4, 6, 1 in the IV chord) and the note names. Try it

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by gorskkr

thanks guys. Going off the R, b3, 4, 5, b7 for minor pentatonic makes sense to me know. However, I have one more question:

Why do they say (and by 'they' I mean people i read online and see on youtube), that you use the minor pentatonic more than the major pentatonic? I play a lot of songs on guitar and then play along with my bass. Almost every song I learn is major- rarely if ever is a song i play or learn in a minor key. So why the heck am I told that I'll be using the minor pentatonic much more so then the major pentatonic?

IMO - The minor pentatonic pattern is easy to learn and it does sound OK. Like the Blues scale does not follow the rules, but, fit's (sounds good) just about anywhere.

I'm with you; my World is major and R-2-3-5-6 works fine for me. One band I'm with plays old classic Country, we have over 200 songs in the master gig book, one is in a minor key. The other is a Praise band and so far it is all major also. I guess it depends on the type of music you play, my music is major so R-2-3-5-6 works fine for me.

Come to think about it add the 8 -- R-2-3-5-6-8 and that is an easy pattern also.

Major Scale Box. 
G|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string
D|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---|
A|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E|-------|---R---|-------|---2---|4th string

[Clef_de_fa]

You already know the major pentatonic ... so you already know the minor pentatonic ...


Let's take G major pentatonic :
G - A - B - D - E

Now let's look at E minor pentatonic :
E - G - A - B - D

See ? they share the same notes, exactly like the G major scale share the same notes with an E minor scale ...

G major scale :
G - A - B - C - D - E -#F

E minor scale :
E - #F - G - A -B - C - D

It works the same way for any major scale ...

What does it tell you ? Well that E minor is the Relative Minor of G major. Every major scale have a relative minor which happen to be the 6th degree of the major scale. Then you can expend you thought a little : if your songs, chords etc is Gmaj7 ... you already know that G major and G major pentatonic share the same notes as E minor or E minor pentatonic ... so you can play E minor pentonic instead of G major pentatonic over that Gmaj7 chord ... of course there is other thing you can do but for now this is enough and it will make the music a little more interesting.

[gorskkr]

Thank guys, your responses have gotten me out of my temporary rut.

I've noticed that when I play along to guitar, my go to bass line is usually: R, V, IV. It sounds good with most of the songs I play. However, as I've been reading more and more I've been discovering that the 4th isn't used a whole lot (and also not in the maj pent). I've been told that some good bass lines will have: R, V, vi, or R, V, vii. These don't sound as pleasing to me when I try to play them along with some backing tracks that I've created for practicing. Does it really matter? Maybe I'm trying to be more "text-book" as opposed to play what sounds good.

[Mushroo]

^ You need to play notes that fit the song. Every song has a different chord progression. It sounds like you are looking for a shortcut to know which notes you can play over a song without actually learning the song; this shortcut does not exist. Did you take my advice and try to figure out popular songs like "Stairway to Heaven" (fast section at the end with the guitar solo) or "Sweet Home Alabama"? (or songs in your favorite genre, if you're not into classic rock) The more effort you make, the more reward---it's that simple.

It's like learning to paint: If you want to paint a bowl of fruit, you don't go on the internet and say "hey guys: what color is an orange? what color is a banana? what color is an apple?" You put the bowl of fruit in front of you, and you look at it.

[angryclown5]

On your guitar backing tracks are you using major or minor chords? That will dictate which 3rd you use in the bass line. Major chords = major 3rd, minor chords = b3rd. The right 3rd will definitely sound better than the 4th.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by gorskkr

Does it really matter? Maybe I'm trying to be more "text-book" as opposed to play what sounds good.

IMO yes it matters. If you are playing the chord tones, you need to change chords on the chord change word, really the syllable of the word, i.e. the syllable the chord change happens on, not before, not after - dead on.

About the 4. The 2 and 4 notes are not used a lot in major phrases, in fact with major scales they function as passing notes, i.e. do not stop or land on them, they function best as passing notes. Now chords. The IV chord beings in tension (which is good) to the progression and is found a lot as the middle chord in the progression. The I chord normally starts the progression, the IV chord introduces tension and interest which leads to the V7 climax chord and then the V7 being the climax chord anything after it would be anti-climatic so the resolution to the I tonic chord usually comes right after the V7 chord. The IV chord's function is to introduce the V chord:

I rest, IV tension, V7 climax, I resolve back to rest. The ole classic I-IV-V7-I

More on this www.musictheory.net Go to Lessons, then common progressions - for common progressions you have to scroll down several pages. Worth your time. Talks about what chords like to move to what other chords, if we let them do what they like to do it usually turns out for the better. For example; the iii like to move somewhere else, in this movement the iii will normally drag the vi with it. The vi likes to move to a ii or IV chord. The ii and the IV can substitute for each other, as can the V and vii. Neat things like that are explained at www.musictheory.net

Have fun.

[gorskkr]

Originally Posted by angryclown5

On your guitar backing tracks are you using major or minor chords? That will dictate which 3rd you use in the bass line. Major chords = major 3rd, minor chords = b3rd. The right 3rd will definitely sound better than the 4th.

almost all major chords. I'm going to to a lot of playing and focus on this this weekend. I'm going to paying attention to where the 3rd. I think I was just getting wrapped up in the 5ths and 4ths due to the circle of 5ths and 4ths diagram I was looking at and memorizing.

Originally Posted by Mushroo

^ You need to play notes that fit the song. Every song has a different chord progression. It sounds like you are looking for a shortcut to know which notes you can play over a song without actually learning the song; this shortcut does not exist.

I agree man. I'm going to completely analyze a song I know well on guitar. Break everything down while paying attention to what scale degree sounds best with my bass and why. I guess I have the bad habit of trying to figure everything out and then getting frustrated when I can't. But yea you guys have given me a lot of food for thought when I jam this weekend.

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

More on this www.musictheory.net Go to Lessons, then common progressions - for common progressions you have to scroll down several pages. Worth your time. Talks about what chords like to move to what other chords, if we let them do what they like to do it usually turns out for the better. For example; the iii like to move somewhere else, in this movement the iii will normally drag the vi with it. The vi likes to move to a ii or IV chord. The ii and the IV can substitute for each other, as can the V and vii. Neat things like that are explained at www.musictheory.net

Have fun.

awesome I'm going to check that out. I like knowing which progessions sound best, or at least knowing which do then playing around with them.

[gorskkr]

Malcom,

What exactly is V7 note. I'm assuming the 7th note in the scale? What is significance of "V"?

[Mushroo]

Originally Posted by gorskkr

Malcom,

What exactly is V7 note. I'm assuming the 7th note in the scale? What is significance of "V"?

Roman numerals signify which scale degree a chord is build upon. Upper case for major, lower case for minor. So in the key of C, C chord is I, D chord is ii, E chord is iii, F chord is IV, and G chord is V.

The 7 signifies it has the dominant 7 quality (1-3-5-b7).

So in the key of C, V7 = G dominant 7 = G, B, D, F.

Any intro to music theory textbook will have this info, presented in an more organized fashion than a bunch of us bombarding you with little snippets of music theory.

[zenman]

He's talking chords there, not notes. He means a dominent 7 chord built off the V, the fifth scale degree. 1, 3, 5, b7

[Alard]

Google Carol Kaye's site. Prowl around there for a while. You may become convinced that this scale stuff is not what it's cracked up to be.
Thank me later.