TalkBass Forums (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/)
-   General Instruction [BG] (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f22/)
-   -   Good resource for learning the modes? (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f22/good-resource-learning-modes-1016515/)

 martyin3d 09-19-2013 01:06 AM

Good resource for learning the modes?

I've started learning the modes this week. I understand the theory behind it so at the moment I'm just working out each mode (slowly) as I play it. But sometimes that means I end up playing different fingerings which is making them hard to remember.

Does anyone know of a good resource where I can see the "correct" fingering of each mode?

Thanks a lot!

 MalcolmAmos 09-19-2013 05:39 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by martyin3d (Post 14887361) I've started learning the modes this week. I understand the theory behind it so at the moment I'm just working out each mode (slowly) as I play it. But sometimes that means I end up playing different fingerings which is making them hard to remember. Does anyone know of a good resource where I can see the "correct" fingering of each mode? Thanks a lot!
Bass Patterns based upon the Major Scale box.
Code:

```Major Scale Box. G|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string D|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---| A|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---| E|-------|---R---|-------|---2---|4th string```
Place the R (root note) and then play the intervals of the mode found within the box. The following is the Parallel method of making modes. Relative, where you walk the key and the notes stay the same may be what you are used to using.

Major modes
• Ionian same as the Major Scale. R-2-3-4-5-6-7-8.
• Lydian use the major scale and sharp the 4 - yes, it’s that simple.
• Mixolydian use the major scale and flat the 7. Change one note.....

Minor Modes
• Aeolian same as the Natural Minor scale. R-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7-8
• Dorian use the Natural Minor scale and sharp the b6 back to a natural 6. Change one note.
• Phrygian use the Natural Minor scale and flat the 2. Again change one note.
• Locrian use the Natural Minor scale and flat the 2 and the 5. OK here you have to change two notes.

That is how you make them - let the major or natural minor scale be your home base and then change one or two notes. Piece of cake. If you want to run up the neck, there will be three root positions waiting on you. Or use your major or natural minor scale in five positions that you already know and change the few notes that need changing to make the mode instead of the scale.

May take some getting used to, but, I never went back to relative mode patterns once I understood parallel.

Have fun.

 Schlyder 09-19-2013 05:41 AM

This site has a lot of good fingerboard charts

http://www.davegrossman.net/guitar-a...amesindex.html

 martyin3d 09-19-2013 05:57 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos (Post 14887671) Bass Patterns based upon the Major Scale box. Code: ```Major Scale Box. G|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string D|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---| A|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---| E|-------|---R---|-------|---2---|4th string``` Place the R (root note) and then play the intervals of the mode found within the box. The following is the Parallel method of making modes. Relative, where you walk the key and the notes stay the same may be what you are used to using. Major modes  Ionian same as the Major Scale. R-2-3-4-5-6-7-8.  Lydian use the major scale and sharp the 4 - yes, its that simple.  Mixolydian use the major scale and flat the 7. Change one note..... Minor Modes  Aeolian same as the Natural Minor scale. R-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7-8  Dorian use the Natural Minor scale and sharp the b6 back to a natural 6. Change one note.  Phrygian use the Natural Minor scale and flat the 2. Again change one note.  Locrian use the Natural Minor scale and flat the 2 and the 5. OK here you have to change two notes. That is how you make them - let the major or natural minor scale be your home base and then change one or two notes. Piece of cake. If you want to run up the neck, there will be three root positions waiting on you. Or use your major or natural minor scale in five positions that you already know and change the few notes that need changing to make the mode instead of the scale. May take some getting used to, but, I never went back to relative mode patterns once I understood parallel. Have fun.
Thanks so much for this, it's exactly what I was looking for. :hyper:

 Lownote38 09-25-2013 04:03 PM

There are no "correct" fingerings really. The modes are just a major scale starting at a different point in the scale (Dorian is 2nd scale degree to 2nd scale degree an octave higher and Phrygian is 3 to 3). There are several fingerings, and for me, it depends on what comes before and/or after the use of said mode.

 AMp'D.2play 09-26-2013 07:35 AM

There are 4 tetrachords shown, and each one has 4 fingering patterns. If you look at one of the charts, by combining 2 of the tetrachords you can form any of the modes. Each one with 16 different fingering patterns.

As has been mentioned, there are no "correct" fingerings. It's whatever works for you depending on the situation. This article may help you find that out.

 Freddels 09-26-2013 10:04 AM

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f22/pa...-method-50170/

 cgheezey 09-26-2013 10:07 AM

The Grimmoire is a very good resource for learning anything at all. modes, scales, chords, you name it. grimmoire is on point. there is one specifically for bass, too.

 DiabolusInMusic 09-26-2013 10:15 AM

Learn your intervals OP and learn the intervals that construct the modes, it is the most practical way to learn them in my experience.

 Ukiah Bass 09-26-2013 10:21 AM

This is a very useful book, not only for learning modes, but for learning how to USE the modes for soloing - particularly in a jazz context.

Bunny Brunel's Power Bass: Soloing Secrets: Explore New Modes, Scales & Chords * Expand Your Improv Palette

http://www.amazon.com/Bunny-Brunels-.../dp/0879307714

P.S. I recent had a question about something in this book and emailed Bunny's website. He personally responded in hours along with several follow up emails. What a pro!

 silvertone 09-26-2013 10:21 AM

Stu Hamm has a pretty good lesson here:

 LordDog 09-28-2013 08:53 AM

Thanks! As a relative beginner, am a little confused by the terms "parallel" and "relative"? Do they mean vertical and horizontal?

The way that I play modes is to play them in box patterns from the top E or A strings. So, for G scale, I would play the pattern in MalcolmAmos' diagram from G (3rd fret), then shift along the neck to A (5th fret) and play a different box pattern (Dorian) 5-7-8, 5-7, 4-5-7.

I understand that I could also start from A (5th fret) and play the notes in G over the same G box pattern to get this same Dorian scale. I can then keep moving down each note in the scale, playing the same box pattern to get the other modes. This would entail sliding along 2 notes on the G string to get the final (Locrian) scale.

Are these what is meant by parallel and relative?

I can see that the 2nd option makes it easier, as I only need to cover a small area of fretboard.

 MalcolmAmos 09-28-2013 09:09 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by LordDog (Post 14926265) Thanks! As a relative beginner, am a little confused by the terms "parallel" and "relative"? Do they mean vertical and horizontal? The way that I play modes is to play them in box patterns from the top E or A strings. So, for G scale, I would play the pattern in MalcolmAmos' diagram from G (3rd fret), then shift along the neck to A (5th fret) and play a different box pattern (Dorian) 5-7-8, 5-7, 4-5-7. I understand that I could also start from A (5th fret) and play the notes in G over the same G box pattern to get this same Dorian scale. I can then keep moving down each note in the scale, playing the same box pattern to get the other modes. This would entail sliding along 2 notes on the G string to get the final (Locrian) scale. Are these what is meant by parallel and relative? I can see that the 2nd option makes it easier, as I only need to cover a small area of fretboard.
Helps to get this out of the way first. What is a mode. A mode is a mode (mood) of the Major scale. Scott Devine says a mode is a Relative of the major scale, as a brother is a member of the family.

Relative is where you use the major scale and just start the first note of your mode on a different "family member". You use the notes of the major scale and find the "relative" that speaks in the voice you want to hear. That's the best analogy I could come up with. Don't have an analogy for Parallel yet. I leave that to you.

C major scale started on the C note = Ionian.
C major scale started on the D note = Dorian. Same notes as Ionian just started on a D note.
Take that same C Ionian (C major scale) and start it on the E note and you have Phrygian.
You walk the key and use the same notes -- Same family but a different member of the family speaks first.

Now for Parallel you keep your same key and change the notes. Let's pause for a moment.
C Lydian is not the C major scale. The C major scale is C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C. and C Lydian using parallel is C, D, E, F#, G, A, B, C. In relative modes Lydian would be the 4th mode and will start with the F. Hang on ..... The F major scale has a Bb as the 4th note. If you sharp the Bb to a B you are back with the C major scale started on F. Relative and Parallel get to the same place, just take different roads getting there. Which is best? That depends on what you are doing and where you are on your musical journey. I like Parallel, others prefer Relative. You pick the one that is best for you. OK back to Parallel....

C major scale = Ionian. Or both have the same notes.
Want Lydian change one note. Sharp the 4. I don't hear a lot of difference and seldom use Lydian for that reason. Others use Lydian Dominant by sharping the 4 and flatting the 7. Now that does give a different sound.

Different sound ----- What kind of sound are you looking for? Up beat and happy. The major scale will give you that. How about sad? The natural minor scale will give you that and as the natural minor scale the same notes as Aeolian --- all of a sudden we are faced with a decision do we want to use a mode or just use the major scale or the natural minor scale? What difference would it make?

Good question. If a scale use a chord progression. If a mode use a modal vamp. Modes do not like a V-I ending, modes want to drone on so their mood can develop.

Yep after you learn how to make the modes a whole new World awaits you on how to use modes.

You want a Middle Eastern sound. Yes there is a middle eastern scale sound (see below) and then there is a mode that gives a Middle Eastern sound. Which would you use? IMO if you are using a verse and lyrics the Middle Eastern scale would fit best as you do need a V-I cadence to end each verse, however, if it is an instrumental piece - no lyrics, or vocalist to set the mood - then I would use a mode for the mood I'm looking for.

Like most modal post, this could go on and on and on and ......... Have fun.
Code:

```One of the Middle Eastern Scales C Arabian (a) intervals:  1,2,b3,4,#4,#5,6,7 half-steps: 2-1-2-1-2-1-2-1 notes:      C,D,Eb,F,F#,G#,A,B```

 lyla1953 09-28-2013 09:15 AM

this helped me...
especially the play back feature

http://www.musicopedia.com/index.php

 LordDog 09-28-2013 09:50 AM

@MalcomlAmos - Thanks for that, to be honest, I am not that good at giving written explanations of this sort of thing, but from what you have written, I reckon we are talking about the same thing; you just explain it better.

Major Scale Box.
G|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string
D|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---|
A|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E|-------|---R---|-------|---2---|4th string

If I use this box and play 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 & 8 = Dorian, then 3,4,5,6,7,8 & 2 = Phrygian, 4,5,6,7,8,2 & 3 = Lydian, and so on.

The alternative is to start on the above pattern in G, then shift along to the 5th fret (A) and play a different box pattern 5-7-8, 5-7, 4-5-7 = Dorian, then 7-8-10, 7-9-10, 7-9 = Phrygian and so on.

That's as far as I've really got with modes; maybe I need to learn the interval thing a bit better :D

 MalcolmAmos 09-28-2013 10:34 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by LordDog (Post 14926414) @MalcomlAmos - Thanks for that, to be honest, I am not that good at giving written explanations of this sort of thing, but from what you have written, I reckon we are talking about the same thing; you just explain it better. Looking at your scale box: Major Scale Box. G|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string D|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---| A|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---| E|-------|---R---|-------|---2---|4th string If I use this box and play 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 & 8 = Dorian, then 3,4,5,6,7,8 & 2 = Phrygian, 4,5,6,7,8,2 & 3 = Lydian, and so on. The alternative is to start on the above pattern in G, then shift along to the 5th fret (A) and play a different box pattern 5-7-8, 5-7, 4-5-7 = Dorian, then 7-8-10, 7-9-10, 7-9 = Phrygian and so on. That's as far as I've really got with modes; maybe I need to learn the interval thing a bit better :D
I never use modes in what I play in public. The time I spent with modes was not wasted, however, you alone can judge the amount of time you need to be investing in modes.

 LordDog 09-29-2013 03:45 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos (Post 14926587) I never use modes in what I play in public. The time I spent with modes was not wasted, however, you alone can judge the amount of time you need to be investing in modes.
That's interesting, what, in your experience, do you think were the most useful things to learn when you first started?

 aguacateojos 09-29-2013 04:08 AM

My problem with modes is applying them in a tune... say I'm playing through Misty, I have a hard time looking at the chart and seeing where I can deviate from the written chords with modes.

 MalcolmAmos 09-29-2013 05:48 AM

Quote:
 Originally Posted by LordDog (Post 14929204) That's interesting, what, in your experience, do you think were the most useful things to learn when you first started?
Where the notes are on the fretboard. Learn the 4th and 3rd string as that is where I place my major scale box's root note. Once placed I trust the box to have the notes I need. Course you need to know the spelling of the chords, scales, arpeggios and modes that you will be playing. You can place the pattern, but, you still need to know what notes within the pattern need to be played. This will take some time and is as important as running your scales - so your fingers get to know where the notes are, we also need to know what notes are needed. Patterns were, and are, my friend.

Next is what notes does this song want played. Pick a type of sheet music; standard notation, lead sheet, fake chord, Nashville numbers and yes tab and learn how to use that sheet music with the songs you like to play. In my case 99% of what I play from is fake chord, because that is the sheet music the band directors hand out in this area.

I love to jam and have done enough that I can function if you give me the key and I'll assume the rest. With basic dirt simple songs this is not all that hard, you just need to get your feet wet in a zillion jamming circles. And have some theory under your belt. So, jam every change you can. When you are playing with your guys and you get lost your jamming experience will come to your rescue.

A little theory helps with how music thinks. Harmonization is where we fit into the picture. Understand how and when our bass lines harmonize the treble clef stuff the solo guys/gals are playing. Helps with that assuming I spoke of.

Recapping; Know your fretboard and where the notes are on at least the 3rd and 4th strings. Then know how to use and play from some type of sheet music and let some theory come into your practice sessions. Oh yes get yourself a go to pattern. I use the major scale box. Cmaj7 chord coming up in the song and know what scale degrees with in the box are going to work with a Cmaj7 chord.
Major Scale Box.
G|---2---|-------|---3---|---4---| 1st string
D|---6---|-------|---7---|---8---|
A|---3---|---4---|-------|---5---|
E|-------|---R---|-------|---2---|4th string
Most of all remember it is supposed to be fun.

 LordDog 09-29-2013 11:14 AM

^ ^ ^ Thanks very much for the info MalcolmAmos :D

 All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:04 PM.