Good way to count odd meters?

[johnvice]

The numbers from 1 to 10 are one syllable each (if you pronounce "seven" as "s'ven" or "sen".

If there are 10 or less beats per measure I just count them out.

If its more than 10, I just break it into two counts per measure.

So if I was playing "Dance On A Volcano" by Genesis (I think that's in 13/8) , I'd count

"one, two, three, four, five, six, sen
one, two, three, four, five, six" (and repeat)

I'm not sure of the proper name for this but sometimes there is a natural subset of time signatures within a bar. For example in "Money" by Pink Floyd is in 7 but it feels like a bar of 3 and a bar of 4. Hence, it's notated in 7/4 for convenience, as it's easier to read than a time change every bar.

Its a good idea to create your countings to these natural subsets. For example, try counting Money as "one, two, three, one, two, three, four".

[Howard K]

Originally Posted by johnvice

I'm not sure of the proper name for this but sometimes there is a natural subset of time signatures within a bar. For example in "Money" by Pink Floyd is in 7 but it feels like a bar of 3 and a bar of 4. Hence, it's notated in 7/4 for convenience, as it's easier to read than a time change every bar.

Its a good idea to create your countings to these natural subsets. For example, try counting Money as "one, two, three, one, two, three, four".

I agree, it's kind of a melodic phrasing thing I guess?

My guess is that it's still notated 7/4 because the melody cycles every 7 crochets, even tho it's in two clear phrases.. but I am guessing?!

[Bruce Lindfield]

There is a Dave Brubeck piece on Time Out, which alternates between 3/4 and 4/4 - but it's two bars of 3 then two bars of 4 - "Three to get ready".

[DougP]

As The Reff and Benjamin said, i do a combination of both of their suggestions. Until i started listening to electronic music 5/4 and 6/4 were my natural signatures to write everything to. i always felt that all my phrasings were being cut off if i stayed to 4/4 timing.

When i come across a beat that is difficult, i think less about the timing and more about what kind of melodic or rhythmic groove i can put in there that will fit the mood properly. Once i have that locked in then i can "sing" it in my head as i play. Though i do see this as a serious limitation on my part because deeply hinders my ability to jam in odd time signatures.

[Marc Piane]

I teach general music to elementary school kids from time to time. I always tell them that I don't know how to count higher than three. Most meter fall into the categories of duple, triple or compound. Compound meters can usually be broken into a combination of 2's and 3's as someone pointed out. Here's some examples... The Mission Impossible Theme is in 5/4 and is broken into 123 12. Same with Take 5. Eleven by Primus can be broken into 12312312312. There are tunes where this doesn't work but I have found it as a good shortcut to get a basic understanding of the meter. Then when you are comfortable and start to feel the time you can really jam.

Funny story. I auditioned with a band a while back. The first tune they called at the audition was Conference of the Bird by Dave Holland. The tune is in 5/4 with a bar of 2/4 in the first ending. I had never really played the tune before so I was kinda nervous. I'm pretty good at playing in odd meters and read pretty well so I was hanging fine. The first ending came, with the bar of 2/4, and time got messed up. I thought I was right but apollogized and we tried it again. Same thing happened. I noticed out of the corner of my eye that the drummers most was moving. He was counting! He was the one having a hard time. I thought 'oh $%!#' We tried it again, same result. It was the drummers fault. I thanked them for hearing me, packed my stuff and left. I don't fault the guy for having a hard time with the meter, but not when I'm the one in the hot seat.

[cowsgomoo]

yup, they'll probably always break down into groups of 2's & 3's... and most of the music you'll be called on to play in odd meters really makes the meter obvious... you know, yer 'Mission Impossible's and yer 'Take 5's of the world... but when you start doing things like putting rests on the 1st beat of a phrase, or playing 7/8 but with a quarter note triplet over the 1st 2 1.4 notes etc, it can get scary

listening to Zappa is great for getting into unusual meters... like the 1st solo vamp of Drowning Witch is, I suppose 9/8, but broken down as: { 1-2 1-2 1-2 1-2-3 } (could be more accurately called 4 1/2 / 4 )

the beginning of 'Don't Eat The Yellow Snow' is 7/8, broken down as {1-2 1-2 1-2-3}

the opening of 'Big Swifty' is 2 bars of 7/16, counted as {1-2 1-2 1-2-3}

the end of 'Echidna's Arf' contains streams and streams of 5/16's, counted {1-2 1-2-3}

a few listens to stuff like that should hammer the concept nicely home.. you can't apply rules of thumb like '11/8 should be played as a 5/4 with an extra eighth note' because there are obviously numerous ways of accenting 11 consecutive eighth notes

e.g. Whipping Post by Zappa has an 11/8 section which is like a 12/8 with a note chopped off: {1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2} try playing that as a 5/4 + 1/8 and you'll be causing yourself a lot of unnecessary work

[bassjamn]

Well i did have my audition yesterday, I think it went ok. A bit of stumbles at some parts.
I found myself doing what others have posted about and just locking onto some signature in the compound parts like a melody or drum groove. Bad habit i guess but had to with the short notice in learning the tunes

This might be pretty cool if they want me to stick around, As i found out two of the guys in a previous band together opened for the Who a while back

Anyone heard of Ryan Downe?

[dodgy_ian]

i've found from my brief excursion into classical music, playing Les Mis, where sometimes every bar is a different time sig+tempo that the sooner you discard the western idea that everything is based in relation to 4/4 then you'll find it a lot easier.
does that make any sense. I just had to let go of the rigid 4/4 framework and just let each bar be whatever.

Explained that awfully, anyone explain it better for me?

Dodge

[geoffkhan]

Yeah, but more important than breaking down odd meters, just learn to feel them. Counting is fine in a learning stage, but eventually if you want to solo over an odd-meter you're going to need to feel it. Just listen and groove and solo over it. It's really not that hard and can be quite fun.

[Dynna]

I've listened to Dream Theater and the Flecktones for the last dozen years or so, and BY FAR the best thing I can suggest, is to suck it up, and tap your foot and count along until you can decipher the meter AND accents. Accents in this case meaning more where the smaller subdivisions come into play. Like Brubeck's "Time Out" being 123-12.(even though the accents are actually 2 over 3 in the first three 8ths. anyways..)

I've learned that if I can physically count it out, and then remember where the accents lie, then it's no prob. The fun begins when you start playing with superimpositions. A few newer DT songs will help with that.

I'm part of a jazz duo, and the fun for me is to keep the basic rhythm at least implied while the guitar player is soloing, and I want to accent some other beat. We do "My Favorite Things" in 11/8. And that's just lopping off a beat at the end of each 2 bar phrase.
Most of what I play counts like this...
*--*--*-*-*-/*--*--****

The four 16ths at the end give the guitar player a nod into the cut off, but the hemiola at the beginning of each bar is occasionally confusing.

Most of the time I just try to play whatever tasteful nutsness is in my head and hope I don't screw up.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Dynna

Like Brubeck's "Time Out" being 123-12.(even though the accents are actually 2 over 3 in the first three 8ths. anyways..)

What are you talking about here - as far as I'm aware "Time Out" is only the name of an album, not a particular tune and "Take Five" was written by Paul Desmond?

[Dynna]

Correct you are.

I even play "Take Five" with my duo. Which is OFF OF "Time Out"

It was late. Sue me.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Dynna

Correct you are.

I even play "Take Five" with my duo. Which is OFF OF "Time Out"

It was late. Sue me.

I just wondered if there was another 5/4 tune, actually written by Brubeck, that I hadn't heard of ...?

[Marc Piane]

I really dig playing in compound meters and do a fair amount of composing in them. I also try to remember a quote I once read by Art Blakey though... something like "One hip is cool, but two hips make an @$$"

If the end product comes out a confusing then what? That's why Zappa and Brubeck and Dave Holland are so cool. They do neat stuff with time but don't make it sound like "a drumset being thrown down the stairs" (another quote, I'm not sure by whom)

[Dynna]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

I just wondered if there was another 5/4 tune, actually written by Brubeck, that I hadn't heard of ...?

I know there has to be. At least part of another tune that's in 5(that's not what you're saying though). I'm only familiar with Time Out, although I got a double CD "Essential" a month or so ago, but I haven't taken any time to chart any of it out yet.

The thing that gets me about Brubeck's stuff, like Blue Rondo, or Raggy Waltz, is the way he goes poly(and/or mixed) on it. Blue Rondo goes 121212123 for 3 bars, and ends with one of 123123123. Raggy Waltz goes something like 121212 123123 123412 123412 123123 123123. So you get this whacked "time change" feel w/o actually doing it.

We likes it precious.