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  #1  
Old 01-26-2010, 03:26 PM
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The gripmaster

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Hi everyone

A 'quicky'!!

Do these gripmasters help your playing, speed and technique. Recent thinking is NO......practise is better.

Opinions and views welcomed

Thanks

Geordie
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  #2  
Old 01-26-2010, 03:34 PM
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Tendonitis-in-a-can.

There is absolutely nothing that those devices can give you, except for RSI's. The fingers are plenty strong enough to play bass from the beginning. All development of technique is training the muscles to do what you want them to.

Here's a video showing a demonstration on exactly how strong your fingers are naturally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_oBJ...eature=related
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  #3  
Old 01-26-2010, 04:18 PM
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Thanks HaVIC5

Gary Willis video very useful and informative.

Geordie
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  #4  
Old 01-26-2010, 04:26 PM
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Throw this piece of crap away before it ruins your playing for good.
The effect of this thing is exactly what you don't want when playing a string instrument.
  #5  
Old 01-26-2010, 05:11 PM
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From what I know (correct me if I'm wrong) most of the force that comes from the fingers come from the upper arms, while the rest come from small muscles in the hands that don't need to be exercised (or rather, they're exercised enough whenever you move your hands).

Basically, don't get it; or, if you do have it, throw it out.
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  #6  
Old 01-26-2010, 05:37 PM
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do some pull ups, that will develop grip strength.
  #7  
Old 01-26-2010, 05:38 PM
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It's grabage.
  #8  
Old 01-27-2010, 02:48 AM
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Gripmaster like devices are of no good in helping with developing muscle movement in bass playing unless those muscles were weak to start with. Then you use it to get to an acceptable level of strength then ditch it. The problem is when to ditch it? If it is used in the wrong way( which is using it for to long and with the wrong type of hand development) it will have a negative effect to what you want( dexterity and power in the form on stamina) and make your hand muscle bound. Think weightlifter then gymnast, both train, and train a lot, both have power, but only one have dexterity and stamina. Add grace of movement and i hope you see the point.

If you need extra info check out the links

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...ogId=507420416


http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...ogId=517140444
  #9  
Old 01-27-2010, 06:44 AM
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*sigh*

They work great alongside your playing IF you use them wisely. Live, I use mine a couple of minutes BEFORE my warm-up. They get me into a good place.

I had RSI, and used these to get myself up to speed again, as mentioned above. Been doing this for about 12 years now, before gigs, before practice. I haven't had RSI since.

If you are stupid with them, then you will get ill-results. Everything in moderation.

This is just my experience.
  #10  
Old 01-27-2010, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmanlamius View Post
*sigh*

They work great alongside your playing IF you use them wisely. Live, I use mine a couple of minutes BEFORE my warm-up. They get me into a good place.

I had RSI, and used these to get myself up to speed again, as mentioned above. Been doing this for about 12 years now, before gigs, before practice. I haven't had RSI since.

If you are stupid with them, then you will get ill-results. Everything in moderation.

This is just my experience.
That is all fair enough, but the hub of the matter is that the tendons used for gripping is the opposite to what is required for fretting i.e. the hand opening. I'm sure Gripmasters have their place, and are useful for other things, but have no benefit at all when fretting strings.
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  #11  
Old 01-27-2010, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by fearceol View Post
That is all fair enough, but the hub of the matter is that the tendons used for gripping is the opposite to what is required for fretting i.e. the hand opening. I'm sure Gripmasters have their place, and are useful for other things, but have no benefit at all when fretting strings.
Maybe not. But maybe more benefit to sustained playing for long periods of time.

I can hand on heart say that they improved my overall strength, though. But as I say, this was alongside hand and tendon exercises, warming up properly, and just generally taking care of myself.

Using them by themselves, would be very un-wise. I agree.
  #12  
Old 01-27-2010, 08:51 AM
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I am a personal trainer and have a Bachelors in Exercise science and am currently at school for my masters in anatomy, physiology, and the study of motor development.

SOOOooo...

It's a basic principle of training specificity.
When training somebody for... example.. a baseball player, You want to develop proper form and do running drills specifically for burst speed, quick directional change (in a pickle or turning a base).
Or when training a boxer or MMA fighter's punch power, i wont have them just bench press their faces off.. you train specific with resistance bands using their specific punching motion.

Training with a gripmaster for better strength with a guitar is the equivalent of doing bicep curls to improve your punching power. yeah.. it'll help a tiny tiny bit... but the strength you'll receive from just playing a lot of bass (and improving your technique meanwhile) will far outweight the practicality of using a gripmaster.


And dont get me into the fact that most of the strength from grip masters is gained in your flexor carpi radialis, flexor digitorum superficialis, etc. (aka your forearm muscles) while you need mostly tendon strength and elasticity increase to improve stamina for playing bass

there also brings in the fact of different types of muscle fibers and their recruitment. A gripmaster, unless you use it for an hour plus, will only increase your t1 muscle fibers, which you won't really use in endurance activities (playing bass, running, etc.) you mostly use t2 fibers.


soooo in short.

NO. just play bass ^_^

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudreax View Post
From what I know (correct me if I'm wrong) most of the force that comes from the fingers come from the upper arms, while the rest come from small muscles in the hands that don't need to be exercised (or rather, they're exercised enough whenever you move your hands).

Basically, don't get it; or, if you do have it, throw it out.
right and wrong at the same time. most "grip strength" comes from forearm muscles (to be vague) while the muscles in the hand are more for fine movement accuracy, etc. and dont provide a lot of the power, more.. "accuracy"


edit: spelling error on "better" i can spell superficialis right but i can't spell "better" hehe

Last edited by PZapdos : 01-27-2010 at 09:00 AM.
  #13  
Old 01-27-2010, 09:26 AM
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Hello, dude.

So you're saying that using the gripmaster before I do my warm-ups before I do my gig/practice, will not help me one little bit?

My physio and I definatly think they do.

Not wanting to start an argument here, or anything. Again, i'm not educated in it like you are, so have no frame of reference. Just chucking across my personal opinion.
  #14  
Old 01-27-2010, 10:59 AM
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Thanks everyone for your advice and help.............don't think I will bother buying one!

Will spend the £15 on beer tonight instead.
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  #15  
Old 01-27-2010, 12:32 PM
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That had better be AWESOME beer for 15 pounds! I'm American, but I can still do basic currency conversions.
  #16  
Old 01-27-2010, 12:40 PM
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you dont want strength in your fingers when playing bass. Its better with endurance imo
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  #17  
Old 01-27-2010, 03:19 PM
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majortoby

It is AWESOME beer ......but for £15 you do get more than one!!
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  #18  
Old 01-27-2010, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmanlamius View Post
Hello, dude.

So you're saying that using the gripmaster before I do my warm-ups before I do my gig/practice, will not help me one little bit?

My physio and I definatly think they do.

Not wanting to start an argument here, or anything. Again, i'm not educated in it like you are, so have no frame of reference. Just chucking across my personal opinion.

Placebo effect maybe?
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  #19  
Old 01-27-2010, 03:34 PM
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Interesting to hear some knowledgeable input regarding the gripmaster.

I don't even know where mine is any more, and do agree that there are plenty of exercises you can do with a bass that are more than "good enough."

On the other hand, a few years back, I developed a tendon problem affecting my pinky in my left hand. I had surgery to correct the problem. And I used a grip master to get my hand back to "normal." I would swear it helped. Although, I do have to admit that I don't have a "control" hand to confirm that. (I would have had to have had the same problem with another hand and not have used a gripmaster to determine empirically whether the gripmaster really did help, I guess.)
  #20  
Old 01-27-2010, 05:10 PM
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Some info and i'll keep it simpleif some what long, but his subject is never easy or short. Those that know of me know what is coming

The human hand is a wonderfull piece of enginering it has the ability for power, touch and dexterity as well as sensitivity to many sensations due to the volume of sensory receptors in the tips nerve endings.
If we understand that its function was never to play guitar but it has the ability to adapt, then we will see some variations of its ability, how it is prone to injury, handles recovery and how disease can affect it.
It is also prone to refered symptoms because of off its sensory capabilites and the fact it is where nerves end. That means you can have a problem anywhere between the neck and the fingertips and only feel the sensation in the fingers, not where the damage is.

Your hands are really not designed to play guitar, it is a trade off. So many talk about just playing bass as the way to train then, but that is also the way to damage them, remember playing bass is an adaption for them. So many players talk about personal things that have worked for them, THAT IS FOR THEM, and so a personal history of the hands is needed to quantify their experience.

Now if you work using keyboard skills your hand will be different to say a carpenter. If you work as a teacher your hands will be different than an assembler. So someone that uses keyboard skills daily will have a completly different make up neuro-mechanics make up as to say the the carpenter. So the hands will have had a different work out before they come to the bass.

The carpenter will have a full range of power on the Ulnar side(the little finger and ring finger side) than the keyboard user. The carpenter will have have more dexterity in the radius side (thumb and forefinger) because of the variation and power required in movement. If you understand the hand has two sides, power on the little and ring finger side, dexterity on the thumb and forefinger side, and each can share the middle finger. Put a coin on the table, pick it up, look at it. You are now using the radial side for dexterity and as a rule the little finger and ring finger curl to the palm to get out the way....that is dexterity.
If you pick up someting like a hammer, baseball bat golf club and swing it, you will be holding mainly with the little finger and ring finger with the middle joining in.....that is power.

Each one of these sides has its own nerve (ulnar and radial) and there own muscles and attachments. The main bulk of finger muscle is in the forearms, the fingers have attachments that are worked from this area.

That is two different skills in two different sides with different nerve paths with different muscle groups. So they can be targeted by exercise away from playing, not replace playing, but enhance playing. Not for all because your hand history is personal to you. Your hands ideally want to last a lifetime. So when someone claims they have done this or that for 20 years and had no problems that is not a proving point, it means they have had no problems. If after 5, 10, 15, 20 years after that statement they they develop serious problems then the statement was false.

So how do we know if problems will occur?
Well we don't, again its personal hand history, but we do know what we should and should not do.

Since body mechanics see the movement as muscular leverage, the fingers move because the muscles act and transfer the energy on them, it is in fact athletic movement and needs to be viewed as such. Not cardio-vascular, so you won't feel out of breath, but you will fatigue in someway.
It is over use and mis use that injure hands the most and where better to find that in playing a bass guitar. The hours of practise put in are the over use, the strains they encounter in stretches and spans are the mis use.

The hand has a natural curl, if you look at it now you will see this. So if you put your hand on the neck of a bass it is on the strings, so light pressure will fret the note. Now for the athletic bit, you need to lift your finger away and apply another finger. Some players see the problem of finger not going down fasst or properly, when it is in fact fingers not lifting away fast enough or properly to give the next finger room to manovere. So it is not to develop a grip action, but a lifting action.
This is a one way action, you lift the finger away, relax it and it comes back, slight pressure to fret, relax it, the pressure is released, then lift away, relax it and it comes back, slight pressure to fret, relax, lift a way and so on. So the development of a grip is not the way to go, as that plane of movement is the little bit of pressure to fret, and that is there already. It is the development of lifting away and then relaxing to let the finger come back is the movement that is needed. That being the case, how can a grip master device en-hance this movement? Well it can't it only works in one plane, the opposite of what is needed.....unless you have weak movement in that plane to start with.

As part of a short warm up with the knowlege that playing will follow to give a fuller range of movement, i see and can find now evidence that it is harmfull. On its own away from this situation it is.
Personal hand history is the key, some players have had more than enough hand use from daily life before they even pick up their bass, and then they add more use. Compared to 20 years ago hand use in daily life has increased tenfold from early age to adulthood. Computer games, keyboards and mouse, mobile phones, texting, remote controls, push pad this, keypad that, life is about the hands in Western society.

Most people need to get the days use out of their hands, not carry on by playing. So gentle stretches warm ups and massage will help prepare them before playing..... everytime and i mean evertime. There is not one situation i can think of where this is not of benifit to the hands.

So you want your hands for life, look after them and remember playing is an adaption of their use, not the only one.
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