Have, like, 11 riffs, and no idea what to do with them

[Invisible_Kid]

I've been cranking out riffs like crazy in the past month or so. They're each about 15 seconds long or so, got some slap, got some harmonics, got some high-octave chordage, got all types of things in Standard and Drop D. Thing is, I have no clue how to put them into a song, or how to continue them to make a song. Does anybody else have this problem?

[Droot]

Time to learn a little chord theory and see what they fit over. I might suggest that you get some chord pad tones and play the riffs over these. If it sounds ok then you have a place to start using your new found knowledge.
JMTCW
Droot

[Invisible_Kid]

Originally Posted by Droot

chord pad tones

What're those?

[Stick_Player]

Can you play them in more than "E"?

11 riffs times 12 keys...

Invert 'em, play backwards, transform 'em into different modes.

Should keep you busy for awhile.

[Invisible_Kid]

Originally Posted by Stick_Player

Can you play them in more than "E"?

11 riffs times 12 keys...

Invert 'em, play backwards, transform 'em into different modes.

Should keep you busy for awhile.

Well, I'd have to retune for the harmonics riffs. I'm no good at artificials. But thanks!

[Stick_Player]

I'm no good at artificials. But thanks!

There's your challenge!

[MalcolmAmos]

Random licks are of no value unless they fit what the other guy/gals are doing.

Now you have not wasted your time you just need to find where those licks fit. Turn those licks into bass lines or see how they can work as a lead solo.

What's the difference in a lick and a bass line? I think you said each of your licks last for seconds. A bass line changes with the chord progression and runs the entire song.

Finding what notes are in your licks and then seeing what chords have enough of those same notes for them to work together is your task... Right now I would think of your licks being melody notes. Melody notes and bass line notes should share some of the same notes - when they do the harmonize each other, which is good. You now just need to see how you can fit your licks to the chords being used in the song. I suspect that went right over your head.

Give us the note names (C, C#) in several of your licks and we will get you started on the right track.

Have fun.

[Invisible_Kid]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Give us the note names (C, C#) in several of your licks and we will get you started on the right track.

In order, seperated by measures, or what?

[MalcolmAmos]

Notes in the order you play them would be what I would like to see. If it is a six note riff - names of the notes and in the order you play them.

Couple two or three riffs should be enough to give you an idea of what could be done with them.

[Invisible_Kid]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Notes in the order you play them would be what I would like to see. If it is a six note riff - names of the notes and in the order you play them.

Couple two or three riffs should be enough to give you an idea of what could be done with them.

Riff 1: A, A# A, G, E, F, G

Riff 2: E, E, F#, B, G, A, G, F, E, Repeat with slight variation on last two notes (E, D)

Riff 3: F#, E, F#, E, F#, E, G, E, G, E, G, E, F#, E, F#, E, F#, E, A, A, A, A

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by Invisible_Kid

Riff 1: A, A# A, G, E, F, G

Riff 2: E, E, F#, B, G, A, G, F, E, Repeat with slight variation on last two notes (E, D)

Riff 3: F#, E, F#, E, F#, E, G, E, G, E, G, E, F#, E, F#, E, F#, E, A, A, A, A

With the exception of the A# in the first one all of those notes are within the C major or it's relative A minor scale. Meaning those notes could be played over a C F G or Am Dm Em chord progression I led off with the Am chord but kept it in the key of G. Am is the vi chord in the key of G. And then at the G note changed to the G (V) chord. What all that boils down to is that lick could be used over C major or A minor progressions.

The second one has both the F and F# so you have to discount one of them as a passing note. I went with the F and that threw me into the key of C. I liked Em G and F chords under this lick. Since I'm in the key of C it would have been nice to have some C notes in the lick. You got close with the D. Hint - it helps if you have a key in mind when you compose your licks.

Now the third one . With all the F# notes - all those notes fit into the G major or E minor scale. I must say I did not care for this lick and could not come up with a good chord progression for it. However, I feel it's place would be in the key of G. The F# to E is a vii to vi movement which I must say I do not care for. So this one did not lift my kilt. Sorry.

To answer your question - what I looked for is where do these lick notes fit. What key/scale are they from. That normally tells us what chord or chord progression they should be played over. Now a lick does not have to be within a specific key, they can be chromatic - leading to another chord - probably in the same key but leading us somewhere. I did not get into that.

Now for what it is worth. I usually start with the chord progression and then use notes of the chord for my licks. Or I know what key I'll be playing over and I use the notes of that scale to form my licks. It's a chicken or egg thing you can start where ever you like. When you finish however, the melodic notes and the chord notes should share some like notes - if they do they harmonize and sound good together. We juggle three things in music; melody, harmony and rhythm. They all three fit together you have to take all three into account as you compose, i.e. melody from the Key of C and harmony from the key of F# is not going to sound good together.

That's why you see licks listed as C licks, F licks, G licks, etc. So you know where they will work. http://www.ehow.com/video_5034674_gu...key-major.html

Have fun.

[Invisible_Kid]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

The second one has both the F and F# so you have to discount one of them as a passing note. I went with the F and that threw me into the key of C. I liked Em G and F chords under this lick. Since I'm in the key of C it would have been nice to have some C notes in the lick. You got close with the D. Hint - it helps if you have a key in mind when you compose your licks.

But can't I just say I'm in C Phrygian?

[recreate.me]

When is started playing bass, i could write licks till the cows came home, then realized i was writing bass like i wrote for guitar. The hardest thing about playing bass is actually writing basslines and not guitar solos when i was bored haha

Try writing slowly progressing lines (walking bass lines even) and have those lead into those fills for changes.. I didnt play out your licks but I bet at least a few would make killer fills, or even breakdowns....

[Invisible_Kid]

Originally Posted by recreate.me

When is started playing bass, i could write licks till the cows came home, then realized i was writing bass like i wrote for guitar. The hardest thing about playing bass is actually writing basslines and not guitar solos when i was bored haha

Try writing slowly progressing lines (walking bass lines even) and have those lead into those fills for changes.. I didnt play out your licks but I bet at least a few would make killer fills, or even breakdowns....

Here's riff two.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by Invisible_Kid

But can't I just say I'm in C Phrygian?

Can if you want to, however, C Phrygian in my books would be C Db, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb or if you go the relative mode way it would include the notes of the Ab major scale, Ab, Bb, C, Db, Eb, F, G.
Phrygian Mode Musical Scales: Root of C | eHow.com

[mambo4]

I believe "chord Pad Tones" refers to Synthesizer Pad sounds (not anything to do with theory) in other words: get some music with chords in it, play along with it.

While there are certainly some great songs that have been written from a bass riff first, that is typically backwards. Usually there is a melody and/or chord progression, and the bass line is created to support those. This is why understanding the basics of harmony is crucial for a bassist.

If I had a killer riff that I wished to make into a song, the first thing I'd to is try to figure out what chords the riff was implying. First by examining the key / scale of the riff (as done above). Then I'd be looking for the notes that are most emphasized in the phrase and assigning chords using those notes a the roots.

all of this requires some familiarity with harmonizing scales and common chord progressions. (you might search for other threads that Malcom has posted in, he is very informative about this stuff)

[vincenzomauer88]

Play the lines from time to time. What I usually will do is find some that have a strong backbone rhythm and use those for songs. Try to see which riffs and similar in time, feel, and are they the same key?

I usually use my little riffs and licks that go nowhere as a like a locker of ideas. Next time you're writing with a group and you see the shapes and chords, try an old idea. Change the rhythm or feel to your drummer, or vice versa.

What's important I think is to constantly be changing or evolving the lines to what surrounds you. A shredding line is worthless if if it isn't reinforcing. I'd rather hear one note played over and over if it reinforces the song than a crazy jazz walk with no rhyme or rhythm.

[Stick_Player]

Originally Posted by Invisible_Kid

But can't I just say I'm in C Phrygian?

Your collection of notes do not indicate that you are in C Phrygian.

[swelltrain]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

With the exception of the A# in the first one all of those notes are within the C major or it's relative A minor scale. Meaning those notes could be played over a C F G or Am Dm Em chord progression I led off with the Am chord but kept it in the key of G. Am is the vi chord in the key of G. And then at the G note changed to the G (V) chord. What all that boils down to is that lick could be used over C major or A minor progressions.

The second one has both the F and F# so you have to discount one of them as a passing note. I went with the F and that threw me into the key of C. I liked Em G and F chords under this lick. Since I'm in the key of C it would have been nice to have some C notes in the lick. You got close with the D. Hint - it helps if you have a key in mind when you compose your licks.

Now the third one . With all the F# notes - all those notes fit into the G major or E minor scale. I must say I did not care for this lick and could not come up with a good chord progression for it. However, I feel it's place would be in the key of G. The F# to E is a vii to vi movement which I must say I do not care for. So this one did not lift my kilt. Sorry.

To answer your question - what I looked for is where do these lick notes fit. What key/scale are they from. That normally tells us what chord or chord progression they should be played over. Now a lick does not have to be within a specific key, they can be chromatic - leading to another chord - probably in the same key but leading us somewhere. I did not get into that.

Now for what it is worth. I usually start with the chord progression and then use notes of the chord for my licks. Or I know what key I'll be playing over and I use the notes of that scale to form my licks. It's a chicken or egg thing you can start where ever you like. When you finish however, the melodic notes and the chord notes should share some like notes - if they do they harmonize and sound good together. We juggle three things in music; melody, harmony and rhythm. They all three fit together you have to take all three into account as you compose, i.e. melody from the Key of C and harmony from the key of F# is not going to sound good together.

That's why you see licks listed as C licks, F licks, G licks, etc. So you know where they will work. Guitar Licks in the Key of C Major | eHow.com

Have fun.

I personally don't try to think of a lick from it's parent key as it doesn't convey a whole lot of musically useful info and often sends you down a dead end. Such as the third lick. If you were a composer and you were writing it out you could put it in the key of G to keep you from decorating #s everywhere, but I would think of it in E minor. Look at it again and think of the notes relative to E minor: 2 1 2 1 2 1 3 1 3 1 3 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 4 4 4 4. Just seeing that pattern you could try a variation as:
5 4 5 4 5 4 6 5 6 5 6 5 6 4 6 4 6 4 7 7 7 1 and then back to your 2 1 2 1 etc.

Just my .02, good luck.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by swelltrain

...... Look at it again and think of the notes relative to E minor: 2 1 2 1 2 1 3 1 3 1 3 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 4 4 4 4. Just seeing that pattern you could try a variation as:
5 4 5 4 5 4 6 5 6 5 6 5 6 4 6 4 6 4 7 7 7 1 and then back to your 2 1 2 1 etc.

Your use of interval numbers let me see the lick in a new light. Seeing the line of interval numbers was a paradigm shift. Would not have thought to do that. Douugh. Licks as a specific set of interval numbers, why not, my bass lines are interval numbers, i.e. R-3-5-6.


Thanks, that has all kinds of possibilities and answers the Invisible Kid's question of what to do with those licks. Think of the lick as a set of interval numbers and use that "set" with any key you happen to be playing in. If a set of notes sound good together in one key, take that same "set of intervals" to another key and it's going to sound good in the new key. Course helps if you are a box person, which I am.

Major scale box with interval numbers shown
G-|----|--2-|----|--3-|--4-|----|----|
D-|----|--6-|----|--7-|--8-|----|----|
A-|----|--3-|--4-|----|--5-|----|----|
E-|----|----|--R-|----|--2-|----|----|

So now think of YOUR riff as a scale, arpeggio, what ever - place the root and take YOUR interval sequence anywhere you like.