HELP: hearing the octave instead of the root

[kiwlm]

I could almost swear that its the octave note being played, which turned out to be the root, what happened was:

1. I was preparing to to learn the song Sublime - Wrong Way from transcriptions from one of the Bass Player Magazine
2. I got hold of the song in media format
3. I listened to it casually and took a quick glance at the transcription.
4. I think, "hey, the first two notes have to be higher than the second two notes, this transcription have to be wrong or they have re-arranged a 5-string for a 4-string!"
5. When I finally try them on the bass, hmm, yeah, the root does sounds more like the record.

The riff sounds like this:

G-------------------------------------
D---------5-5-6-7------------3-3-4-5--
A-----7-7----------------5-5----------
E-5-5----------------3-3--------------

I have heard about tone deaf, but is there such thing as octave deaf?

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by kiwlm

I have heard about tone deaf, but is there such thing as octave deaf?

Yes, and it's more a case of an audio illusion than you having a dysfunctional ear. I've been playing bass over 30 years, I have a pretty sensitive ear, I learn songs by ear note-for-note perfect all the time, no tabs, just me and my ear, and I STILL get fooled every once in awhile. Usually it has to do with harmonic overtones somehow getting boosted during the recording process and actually making you think you're hearing the note an octave up, but you're actually hearing the harmonic equivalent. Sometimes it takes a lot of listening and re-listening to finally figure it out.

[Billnc]

There is also the illusion of lower notes, combination notes, if memory serves it is used in organs to avoid having to use too large pipes. You can hear them very strongly at the end of Working Man by Rush on the original recording. That guitar riff at the very end you hear the combination tone going way down as he bends up. Check it out.

[electracoyote]

Originally Posted by Billnc

There is also the illusion of lower notes, combination notes, if memory serves it is used in organs to avoid having to use too large pipes. You can hear them very strongly at the end of Working Man by Rush on the original recording. That guitar riff at the very end you hear the combination tone going way down as he bends up. Check it out.

+1

Before I started playing bass and guitar, I used to listen to that bent note and the harmonics coming off it and wonder what the hell was going on.

[Billnc]

The clincher is the low note doesn't exist, we hear it because, if we hear two notes that are in the harmonic series of a lower note our brains add the fundamental.

[uethanian]

Originally Posted by Billnc

There is also the illusion of lower notes, combination notes, if memory serves it is used in organs to avoid having to use too large pipes. You can hear them very strongly at the end of Working Man by Rush on the original recording. That guitar riff at the very end you hear the combination tone going way down as he bends up. Check it out.

yea imagine if organs actually had 32' stops. beastly.

[aikakone]

Originally Posted by Billnc

The clincher is the low note doesn't exist, we hear it because, if we hear two notes that are in the harmonic series of a lower note our brains add the fundamental.

I don't understand this clearly. Could you give an example with pitch names? I think that would clear it up for me. Thanks!

[jmattbassplaya]

I`ll chime in with this, does anyone else typically learn a song by learning it an octave up first? For some reason I have a hard time hearing the bass clearly on a record(especially with modern music-could be all the compression people use now in the studio) and it forces me to learn the bass part an octave up, otherwise I have no clue what`s going on.

[DeluxeRed]

Don't forget it is a studio creation. There may very well be both notes on the recording. There are quite a few songs with, um, ambigious bass parts that are a result of multiple tracks laid on top of each other, sometimes eq'd differently, sometimes played at different octaves, sometimes harmonically, sometimes one is picked and one is not...

[kiwlm]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

I`ll chime in with this, does anyone else typically learn a song by learning it an octave up first? For some reason I have a hard time hearing the bass clearly on a record(especially with modern music-could be all the compression people use now in the studio) and it forces me to learn the bass part an octave up, otherwise I have no clue what`s going on.

I do this as well. For some of the low notes (like the lowest 5 notes on a 4-string), I find it very hard to differentiate the notes in a noisy environment, but I can differentiate them when there's no other noise.

So what I usually do is
1. listen to the record
2. sing it
3. find it on the fretboard
4. play it along with the record to confirm <- this is much easier for me if I play it one octave higher
5. play it back at the same octave and practice away

Thanks for bringing this up, i was thinking about starting another thread about this topic!

[totallybacan]

Originally Posted by aikakone

I don't understand this clearly. Could you give an example with pitch names? I think that would clear it up for me. Thanks!

Well, an note and a fifth above it would generate octave below the first note, if i remember correctly.

C2 + G2 = C1 + C2 + G2

C2 + E2 = C2 + E2 + G2

C2 + E2 + G1 = C2+ E2 + G1 + C0

Of course, this all varies with each person and how they perceive sound

[aikakone]

I think I follow. It's like the mind perceives the notes in a different place along the overtone series and fills in the fundamental or other lower notes.

[kiwlm]

Originally Posted by totallybacan

Well, an note and a fifth above it would generate octave below the first note, if i remember correctly.

C2 + G2 = C1 + C2 + G2

Of course, this all varies with each person and how they perceive sound

Hmm, but for me, I think I am hearing

C2 + G2 = C2 + G2 + C3

Maybe its because the distance from G2 -> C3 is smaller than C2 -> G2, and my brain tend to do the wrong association.

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by aikakone

I think I follow. It's like the mind perceives the notes in a different place along the overtone series and fills in the fundamental or other lower notes.

Yes, studies were done where sine waves were played where the only way the notes would make sense is if they were in the harmonic series of a fundamental. In other words the fundamental was removed. The perception is of the full note. It was thought that it was a 'combination' note and a real acoustic phenomenon but apparently it is an illusion. Paraphrased, probably badly, from "This is Your Brain On Music"

[aikakone]

I actually have that book. I should go look it up. Thanks, Bill.


[And typo... "sine" waves]

[Billnc]

Originally Posted by aikakone

I actually have that book. I should go look it up. Thanks, Bill.


[And typo... "sine" waves]

Page 43! Oh and I edited my goofy spelling