Help for hearing Standards changes better.

Johnny StingRay · #1 08-22-2011, 07:14 AM

Blues are easy to hear the changes.
Country is easy to hear the changes.
Classic rock is easy to hear the changes.

But, through all the years I've been playing (30+) I still can't pick up on the chord progressions of the standard jazz tunes. The only way I can play a standard is to follow a chart. But my playing sounds so robotic, and my improvisation is terribly forced sounding.

I was reading on the Jazz Improvisation techniques, tips, & inspiration - JazzAdvice.com website that one should throw out the real book, charts, etc. and really listen to the actual standard recordings of the jazz greats. I've listened to the greats for years because I love jazz, but unfortunately it all sounds the same to me. The bass just sounds like it is running up and down a scale and I can't decipher when the chord changes occur or what the bassist is doing.

I've tried playing the progressions on my piano so I can hear the changes, but my keyboard skills are terrible. And then again, I'm working from charts to do that.

Any advice? Or should I just concentrate on blues, country, classic rock, praise/worship and leave jazz to the experts?

Oh, I'm a praise/worship bassist. If that means anything.

Thanks everyone.

zacinaction · #2 08-22-2011, 07:18 AM

I've found what's helped me the most in terms of learning the songs and not getting lost in the changes is to learn the melody really well. If you kinda keep the melody in the back of your head the whole time, and learn how it sounds over the chords, you'll never get lost.

Hope this helps...

MalcolmAmos · #3 08-22-2011, 09:20 AM

If you are like me it's my hobby. Sure I play in a couple of bands and would love to play in a jazz band, but, no one has asked me to - and if someone did I too would have to be playing from charts - so I'm happy with what I do in the other bands.

Sounds like you can hold your own in what you do. I bet you are your own worst critic.

Not saying you should not want to improve, but, that improvement is going to come from technique and technique IMHO comes from sitting knee to knee with someone that plays the type of music you want to learn more about. Sounds like it is time to sit knee to knee with someone that plays your type of music and learn how they do it.

Good luck.

blakelock · #4 08-22-2011, 09:21 AM

i'm far from an expert but i'll throw a couple things out.

- it's also very difficult for me to pick out jazz progressions by ear, but...you can often pick out some "cirlcle of 5ths" sections in the progression. the ii-V-I is a great example of a very common jazz progression that is a short "circle of 5ths" section. these are found elsewhere as well and have a distinctive sound you should be able to pick out. practice playing through the Circle of 5ths as part of your practice routine to help your ear pick them out of songs.

- it might sound like the bass is just walking/running up/down scales but this isn't the case. if the bass player were doing that, you'd notice. in fact, try it at your next jazz jam/gig. plenty of notes/runs will sound very out of place since it's very important what chord is being played. to help hear the impact of the chord progression, just play the root of each chord while you practice along with a standard and you should start to hear the effect of the chord progression. it's not random. it really travels then "resolves". it might also help to use some practice recordings where the bass is panned to one side allowing you to remove it by adjusting speaker balance.

good luck.

Billnc · #5 08-22-2011, 09:24 AM

Do you play a harmony instrument like guitar or piano? If you don't, learn the chords on piano, and the inversions. The only way to really understand harmony, particularly advanced jazz harmony, substitutions and progressions is to actually play the chords so that they are not an abstract concept to you.

One thing I will do on guitar is THINK Bb major chord and goof around with it, playing the different substitutions and extensions. Then if I hear a player playing something like a D minor where I know a Bb major chord is I can hear it as a Bbmaj9. I'll do this with all the basic chords and then comp through a tune using all the ideas.

It's a big help to know what the other guys are doing.

teleharmonium · #6 08-22-2011, 10:03 AM

It's impossible to know how far someone else should go but it should be understood that being able to pick out jazz chords by ear does take sustained effort and direct experience far beyond what it takes to pick out the harmony in simple pop music .

I would suggest either persevering on the keyboard, or you could try playing arpeggios on the bass of all the chords, and transposing them into all keys. I think harmonized major scales in all keys is an important thing to work through, but in your case playing them as 7th chord arpeggio form might be more immediately useful. Still, there's nothing like playing chords as chords on some instrument. The best things I ever did for my bass playing were to become a decent rhythm guitar player and to get into arranging and recording original songs for a wide variety of instruments.

Uou should get into the habit of listening for the harmonic movement in all songs you hear. As you get better at this on simple pop songs you're building the foundation for harder stuff later. Especially focus on the bridge, and then after you get better at this you'll want to seek out more advanced pop music, or swing era songs as a middle ground between simple pop/rock changes and complex jazz.

Phil Smith · #7 08-22-2011, 10:28 AM

A lot of jazz tunes are based on the 12 bar blues, can you hear the changes in those tunes?

longfinger · #8 08-22-2011, 11:01 AM

use the "answer technique".

Pick a song. Say "Autumn Leaves". Learn the chords. Understand the progression and relationships. Know it. Memorize it. Then play it from memory on the piano or guitar. Listen to a recording of a simple performance knowing the chords as they pass along. You know the answers already, now you're just listening. Do that with each song you want to learn. Eventually, you'll be hearing more and more...

flypejose · #9 08-22-2011, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billnc

...learn the chords on piano, and the inversions. The only way to really understand harmony, particularly advanced jazz harmony, substitutions and progressions is to actually play the chords so that they are not an abstract concept to you.

It's a big help to know what the other guys are doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by teleharmonium

It's impossible to know how far someone else should go but it should be understood that being able to pick out jazz chords by ear does take sustained effort and direct experience far beyond what it takes to pick out the harmony in simple pop music .

I would suggest either persevering on the keyboard...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Smith

A lot of jazz tunes are based on the 12 bar blues, can you hear the changes in those tunes?

Quote:

Originally Posted by longfinger

use the "answer technique".

Pick a song. Say "Autumn Leaves". Learn the chords. Understand the progression and relationships. Know it. Memorize it. Then play it from memory on the piano or guitar. Listen to a recording of a simple performance knowing the chords as they pass along. You know the answers already, now you're just listening. Do that with each song you want to learn. Eventually, you'll be hearing more and more...

+1 to all of the above!

I too play gospel and felt the need to improve my ear as far as chord progression goes.

I would say, if you can easily hear changes on Blues country and rock songs, it’s because (I dare to say it), they are so popular and “monotonous” that even non-musicians could recognize them easily. I’m not saying they’re boring, but just that they’re pretty similar from song to song, with very little to no dissonant substitutions.

So basically, like it’s been said previously, you should keep on learning an harmonic instrument, and be versed in advanced Music Theory like unusual Chords substitutions, Chords voicing, Composing and arranging for jazz ensemble etc. That will open your eyes (pardon, your ears so to speak)!

A good start could be to learn how they jazzify a regular blues Progression, like in how to get from here

Bunny Brunel Blues Tr 1 by Flypejose on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

to there:

Bunny Brunel Blues Tr 2 by Flypejose on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

Same blues form (in a sense) but #2 has some crazy substitutions!

onlyclave · #10 08-22-2011, 08:09 PM

It takes a lot of practice and experience but it gets easier after a while.

1) Learn a melody and get it down cold. Learn to play it in all 12 keys
2) Figure out what the form is. 12 bar blues? Bird Blues? Rhythm Changes? AABA?
3) Look for the recurring patterns that are common in jazz: 3-6-2-5-1, etc.
4) Look for the surprise chord changes that make each tune a little different

There are a LOT of recycled changes in jazz. With enough experience you can come to recognize what they are.

jacojbass · #11 08-22-2011, 08:12 PM

sing everything....this will solve your problem...the chords, root motion. Also make sure you understand the theory of the tunes you are working on.

Groove Master · #12 08-22-2011, 09:11 PM

Identify the II-V's.

One thing that can help is get some Aebersold volumes and listen to them and watch the chords charts. Also, try to play along with some tracks without looking at the chords.

Johnny StingRay · #13 08-23-2011, 05:53 AM

Thank you, everyone. I'll print these up and start working on your suggestions.

All of you are why Talkbass is a GREAT place!!!!

Russell L · #14 08-23-2011, 06:36 AM

While not the best bass line always, arpeggios really identify the chords. Add to that a few scale steps and chromatic movement and you can often walk your way to the next change. I'd start by playing a chart by argeggiating the changes.

Ed Fuqua · #15 08-23-2011, 06:59 AM

I'm just sayin'...

Billnc · #16 08-23-2011, 07:16 AM

Thanks Ed

Ed Fuqua · #17 08-23-2011, 11:22 AM

And also...

Johnny StingRay · #18 08-24-2011, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

And also...

I printed up this and your previous post.

Thank you very much.

I'm excited about putting these lessons into practice.

Ed Fuqua · #19 08-24-2011, 06:26 AM

You're welcome, I'm just passing along stuff I got from my teacher that has helped me.

Johnny StingRay · #20 08-25-2011, 08:06 PM

My nephew borrowed my real book and can't find it, "doh!!!" , but I was able to download lead sheets of all of my favorite Duke Ellington tunes from Wikifonia. I'm going to use Ed Fuqua's lessons for these. I'll only work one tune at a time........I'm going to start with "Satin Doll", my favorite!!!

My energy, my enthusiasm are back!!! Woohoo!!!