Help with improvising/soloing?

[Matthew_84]

Hello TBers,

I'm having issues with improvising and soloing. It's not really my note selection but rather my groove, my rhythm, that I'm having a hard time with.

I play a Fender P bass with flats, so it's just a thump-machine, but when I go to improvise/solo, I find that my creation sounds more like some catchy bassline than a solo instrument creating some very melodic part. It sounds more like a bass intro to a rock song than to some double bass solo in the middle of a jazz song.

I think I just have a hard time seperating my thumpy grooving style into something that's more "airy" and free.

I don't know if I'm making any sense to anyone out there. But if anyone identifies with this and has been stuck in this rut before, I'm curious as to what you did to get out of it.

Thanks in advance,

Matt

[makkE]

If you have problems steering away from too "bassy" improvising (although I don't find that to be bad at all), maybe try to forget you are playing bass and mimic a wind player or guitarist of your choice - just to get a different view.

[Buxtehude]

I sometimes think that 2 pickup basses are a little easier for soloing as you can just wins in some more bridge pickup during the solo. It can be helpful to start the solo high (outside the money frets) so that the audience knows that it's time for the bass to shine.
Also I hate flats especially in a soloing situation but some people can pull it off. Personally I use an active bass with a passive mode and switch to active mode during a solo. This is my method but your experience may differ.

[jmattbassplaya]

Be happy you have that problem. The number one problem with bass solos (and I know I'll get flak for this) is that people try to turn the bass into a lead instrument. The problem with this is that whenever a bass player moves away from the groove people lose their interest in the music. It's no longer danceable, and you'll notice people start making a move to the bar to order drinks, the dance floor might clear some, people will check their phones, etc...

If your solos end up sounding like killer grooves then I say keep at it! People will still get down to your stuff and will stick around to hear what you're doing. Leave the lead to actual lead players and just continue doing your job as the official booty shaker

[dhsierra1]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

Be happy you have that problem. The number one problem with bass solos (and I know I'll get flak for this) is that people try to turn the bass into a lead instrument. The problem with this is that whenever a bass player moves away from the groove people lose their interest in the music. It's no longer danceable, and you'll notice people start making a move to the bar to order drinks, the dance floor might clear some, people will check their phones, etc...

If your solos end up sounding like killer grooves then I say keep at it! People will still get down to your stuff and will stick around to hear what you're doing. Leave the lead to actual lead players and just continue doing your job as the official booty shaker

good advice, check out Prakash John's solo on Lou Reed's live "Rock and Roll Animal", can't remember if it was Sweet Jane or Rock 'N Roll. Sounds like flats to my ears (though it's been awhile since I've heard it) and he keeps a mean groove going.

[James Judson]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

Be happy you have that problem. The number one problem with bass solos (and I know I'll get flak for this) is that people try to turn the bass into a lead instrument. The problem with this is that whenever a bass player moves away from the groove people lose their interest in the music. It's no longer danceable, and you'll notice people start making a move to the bar to order drinks, the dance floor might clear some, people will check their phones, etc...

If your solos end up sounding like killer grooves then I say keep at it! People will still get down to your stuff and will stick around to hear what you're doing. Leave the lead to actual lead players and just continue doing your job as the official booty shaker

I second the motion.

I think a perfect bass solo is < 4 seconds. No one but your mom wants to hear your extended bass solo. Oh and tell your drummer James says "drum solos need to be < 3 seconds".

This all comes from a bass player that solos all night in the privacy of his own home but on stage he's a whore to his audience. 40yrs experience.

YMMV

[tangentmusic]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

Be happy you have that problem. The number one problem with bass solos (and I know I'll get flak for this) is that people try to turn the bass into a lead instrument. The problem with this is that whenever a bass player moves away from the groove people lose their interest in the music. It's no longer danceable, and you'll notice people start making a move to the bar to order drinks, the dance floor might clear some, people will check their phones, etc...

If your solos end up sounding like killer grooves then I say keep at it! People will still get down to your stuff and will stick around to hear what you're doing. Leave the lead to actual lead players and just continue doing your job as the official booty shaker

I'll 3rd this. Take your already solid groove and "fancy" it up slightly. Go up higher on the fretboard for a run. Throw in some extra notes to the groove. Play around with your arrangement a bit. Never loose the basic groove. Make a solo short 'n sweet. Have fun with 'em.

[Dick Tree]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

Be happy you have that problem. The number one problem with bass solos (and I know I'll get flak for this) is that people try to turn the bass into a lead instrument. The problem with this is that whenever a bass player moves away from the groove people lose their interest in the music. It's no longer danceable, and you'll notice people start making a move to the bar to order drinks, the dance floor might clear some, people will check their phones, etc...

If your solos end up sounding like killer grooves then I say keep at it! People will still get down to your stuff and will stick around to hear what you're doing. Leave the lead to actual lead players and just continue doing your job as the official booty shaker

+1

I play in a jam band, and simply put, audiences (and bandmates!) dig simple, groovy basslines that have a larger presence in the song than a normal "bassline", but aren't too flashy. Lock in with the drummer. Make sure you guys both accent the 1. Keep it groovy, let your fingers fly.

I don't know if you've done this, but try recording you playing with your drummer. I never really appreciated my basslines until I did this.

[Matthew_84]

I actually don't mind keeping the groove in a jam / band situation. The reason for this post really, is that when I'm just noodling around in my bedroom sometimes I feel like playing more of a lead part rather than a groove, and it's discouraging when I can't seem to get out of it.

One thing I've noticed as well, which actually has to do with my note selection, is that I always try to play within the chord progression, but when I start this up on my own, I make up my own progressions and because I don't know a lot of chord progressions I'm either doing II-V-I or I-IV-V and this causes the solos to all sound the same.

But regardless of the paragraph above, I still can't seem to get out of the groove. And I do agree that a P bass with flats probably isn't helping much.

[jmattbassplaya]

Have you studied much theory before?

[dhsierra1]

Originally Posted by Matthew_84

....And I do agree that a P bass with flats probably isn't helping much.

You can do it w/those, that's what I use at least half the time. Listen to that Prakash John solo, or listen to some of the tones used by LA session players in the 60s through 70s, generally P's w/flats and they get a nice tone that can stand out very well when they want.

[Matthew_84]

I know basic theory. I know scales, chord tones, and modes... And I understand what the tonic means, but not sub-mediant or sub-dominant or the other scale degrees. Sometimes when I try to come up with a new progression I just play different scale degrees in a scale and come up with something that sounds decent.

I do have two theory textbooks, and am about a third through the first one (it's called something like Scales, Chords, Rhythm and Meter, and the second is Basic Harmony Progressions by the same authors). I know this has much of the info I need, I just can't seem to find time as I am currently in school for my trade and whenever I'm home with free time I'm playing bass... But yes, I should make more of an effort.

And thanks, I will listen to some of Prakash John's stuff.

[cire113]

Honestly if you solo within the groove ppl won't stop dancing

[joebar]

i always play everything with enough activity that i wouldn`t need a solo; in fact, now that i think about it, i wouldn`t know how to either...

[BassBob1]

If a bassist has the ability a P with flats, no matter how thumpy, is just fine for breaking loose and stepping outside of the typical groove and roll of a bass player. I will typically only take one solo in a show but I'm usually playing in a jam band of some sort. You should try and listen to some of these guys or if you really wanna step outside of the bass player roll listen to horn players and guitarist and borrow there phrasing.

Oteil Burbridge - Bass Solo (Allman Brothers Band) - YouTube

Little Walter Rides Again - YouTube

Tedeschi Trucks Band - Uptight (Wanee 2011) - YouTube

Todd Smallie bass solo - YouTube

[Buxtehude]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

Be happy you have that problem. The number one problem with bass solos (and I know I'll get flak for this) is that people try to turn the bass into a lead instrument. The problem with this is that whenever a bass player moves away from the groove people lose their interest in the music. It's no longer danceable, and you'll notice people start making a move to the bar to order drinks, the dance floor might clear some, people will check their phones, etc...

If your solos end up sounding like killer grooves then I say keep at it! People will still get down to your stuff and will stick around to hear what you're doing. Leave the lead to actual lead players and just continue doing your job as the official booty shaker

There's lots of music that isn't about dancing. And as for leaving the lead to the lead players: you sir, denigrate our art. The bass has a beautiful solo voice that should be heard more often.

[Matthew_84]

Originally Posted by BassBob1

If a bassist has the ability a P with flats, no matter how thumpy, is just fine for breaking loose and stepping outside of the typical groove and roll of a bass player. I will typically only take one solo in a show but I'm usually playing in a jam band of some sort. You should try and listen to some of these guys or if you really wanna step outside of the bass player roll listen to horn players and guitarist and borrow there phrasing.

Oteil Burbridge - Bass Solo (Allman Brothers Band) - YouTube

Little Walter Rides Again - YouTube

Tedeschi Trucks Band - Uptight (Wanee 2011) - YouTube

Todd Smallie bass solo - YouTube

Thanks for posting those and queuing those up for me. That is truly appreciated and it gave me some ideas.

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by Buxtehude

There's lots of music that isn't about dancing. And as for leaving the lead to the lead players: you sir, denigrate our art. The bass has a beautiful solo voice that should be heard more often.

Haha, taking that to an extreme aren't ya?

Certainly bass can play a lead role, but if you do so without something else taking over the groove then the music can really, really suffer and become stale. Here's an example of a bassist and band that pulls it off very well:

Renaud Garcia-Fons Linea del Sur Live "La Silhouette".mp4 - YouTube

[devine]

Hey Matt...

Generally the problem or issue should I say is that we play bass lines ALL the time... so when it comes to your time to solo, playing something that sounds like a bass line feels really natural to us. - And that is totally cool if that's what we want to do.

If it's not what we want to do, but we end up doing it anyway... then there's a problem obviously.

So... dead simple... practice playing melodies. Just get used to not playing the bass line all the time... it can feel alien to start with but you'll get it. Maybe take a couple of jazz tunes (Autumn Leaves would be a good starting point) or what ever your into, then learn the melody. Play it along with a backing track... and alternate between this...

First time through play the melody really straight i.e. don't play with the rhythms etc.

Then second time through start messing with it a little... the timing and phrasing I mean... so your still playing the same notes, just being more inventive with it.

I really think this will help you a lot.

If you've got the ability to do something and choose not to, well that's totally cool. But, if you want to do something (i.e. play with more of a soloistic approach) but automatically revert to doing something else then you just need to work out why... and bobs your unkle!

Hope that helps a little

S.

ScottsBassLessons.com | Free Online Bass Lessons
Scott Devine's Bass Blog

[lfmn16]

Originally Posted by Matthew_84

Hello TBers,

I'm having issues with improvising and soloing. It's not really my note selection but rather my groove, my rhythm, that I'm having a hard time with.

I would suggest learning some solos within the genre you're trying to solo in. I'm currently working my way through some of the easier transcribed Charlie Parker and Coltrane solos. After you've learned some, make them your own.

In one of Eric Clapton's biographies he talks about first learning solos off of blues records, then doing his own thing. He said if he listens back to his own solos he can hear some Freddie King, then himself, then some B.B. King, then himself.