Help learning transpose theory

[beerthebear]

Hi, I know this might be a stupid question, but I was checkin out this picture out on wikipedia and was wondering if somebody could explain it:



I found it on the double bass wikipedia page under double bass. It explained that the upright bass pitch is one octave lower than written. How does this picture represent that? And is this the same for electric? Thanks

[BillMason]

Originally Posted by beerthebear

Hi, I know this might be a stupid question, but I was checkin out this picture out on wikipedia and was wondering if somebody could explain it:



I found it on the double bass wikipedia page under double bass. It explained that the upright bass pitch is one octave lower than written. How does this picture represent that? And is this the same for electric? Thanks

I don't see how it explains that either - the bass note that the gliss is attached to is an E, and it's connecting to a G in the treble clef.

[BillMason]

I just went to the wiki site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Range_contrabass.png

And what it is supposed to be describing is the playing range of the double bass - from low E to high G, which would be the G at the 12th fret G string, not the open G.

[beerthebear]

Originally Posted by BillMason

And what it is supposed to be describing is the playing range of the double bass - from low E to high G, which would be the G at the 12th fret G string, not the open G.

Alright I think I get that, from open E on the E string would be on the bottom left, and then the 12th fret G on G string would be on the treble clef as shown. But what is that note C (That smaller note under the E) represent? Also what do the 8vb and 8va mean, and that diamond shaped note mean? I assume this is the same with electric.

[MonetBass]

8va = octave above
8vb = octave below
The diamond represents a harmonic note (pitch sounded, octave above open G in this case).

And that picture is confusing as all get out.

[KayCee]

Originally Posted by beerthebear

Alright I think I get that, from open E on the E string would be on the bottom left, and then the 12th fret G on G string would be on the treble clef as shown. But what is that note C (That smaller note under the E) represent? Also what do the 8vb and 8va mean, and that diamond shaped note mean? I assume this is the same with electric.

The C represents a double bass with a "C extension" machine on the low E string.

[BillMason]

Originally Posted by KayCee

The C represents a double bass with a "C extension" machine on the low E string.

Can you get those for a double bass?? Cool...

[BillMason]

Originally Posted by OKStateBass66

8va = octave above
8vb = octave below
The diamond represents a harmonic note (pitch sounded, octave above open G in this case).

And that picture is confusing as all get out.

PS, nothing doesn't rhyme with orange. Nothing doesn't rhyme with anything, either.

[Jeff Moote]

I don't find that picture confusing at all, if you have the DB background:

The first stack of notes are the open strings, with the bracketed C showing the lowest ext. note. The second note (gliss) is to the highest pitch commonly written for the bass (the G not at the 12th "fret" but the 24th, if we're talking fretted basses) - virtuoso compositions will write stopped notes higher. The harmonic is the G two octaves above that, generally the highest harmonic written (though again, higher is possible).

There's a fair bit of misinformation above.

[BillMason]

Originally Posted by Jeff Moote

I don't find that picture confusing at all, if you have the DB background:

The first stack of notes are the open strings, with the bracketed C showing the lowest ext. note. The second note (gliss) is to the highest pitch commonly written for the bass (the G not at the 12th "fret" but the 24th, if we're talking fretted basses) - virtuoso compositions will write stopped notes higher. The harmonic is the G two octaves above that, generally the highest harmonic written (though again, higher is possible).

There's a fair bit of misinformation above.

Well, middle C would be the line right below the bottom line on the treble clef, and this is the G just above middle C, so wouldn't that be the 12th fret G string? Isn't middle C the 5th fret G string? My bad if wrong, but that's what I was taught as a younger man.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by BillMason

Well, middle C would be the line right below the bottom line on the treble clef, and this is the G just above middle C, so wouldn't that be the 12th fret G string? Isn't middle C the 5th fret G string? My bad if wrong, but that's what I was taught as a younger man.

The note on the 5th fret of the G string is written as middle C, but in terms of its actual pitch, it's not actually middle C, it's the C an octave below that. That's what's meant when it's said that the actual pitch of the bass is an octave below the written pitch.

So "true" middle C is on the 17th fret of the G string, and the G above middle C is at the 24th.

The 8vb notation on that first stack of notes is telling you that you're being shown the true concert pitches of the notes on the bass, not the notes as conventionally written for the bass. If it were the latter, then there wouldn't be an 8vb. Therefore, the following G is also actual concert pitch.

[BillMason]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

The note on the 5th fret of the G string is written as middle C, but in terms of its actual pitch, it's not actually middle C, it's the C an octave below that. That's what's meant when it's said that the actual pitch of the bass is an octave below the written pitch.

So "true" middle C is on the 17th fret of the G string, and the G above middle C is at the 24th.

Hunh... I never knew that! Thanks.

[KayCee]

Also, the low E on the bass is in the octave of the piano range assigned the name "EE" (double E), which brought about the name "Double Bass".

[BillMason]

Originally Posted by KayCee

Also, the low E on the bass is in the octave of the piano range assigned the name "EE" (double E), which brought about the name "Double Bass".

I seem to remember being told that actually... which, if I had applied that tidbit to my understanding of middle C would have just really confused me!! Thanks guys.

[beerthebear]

Originally Posted by Jeff Moote

I don't find that picture confusing at all, if you have the DB background:

The first stack of notes are the open strings, with the bracketed C showing the lowest ext. note. The second note (gliss) is to the highest pitch commonly written for the bass (the G not at the 12th "fret" but the 24th, if we're talking fretted basses) - virtuoso compositions will write stopped notes higher. The harmonic is the G two octaves above that, generally the highest harmonic written (though again, higher is possible).

There's a fair bit of misinformation above.

So just curious, what is the highest note that could be played on a standard tuned bass, if it can be higher than that G harmonic(By the way how could I play the highest G harmonic)?

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

The 8vb notation on that first stack of notes is telling you that you're being shown the true concert pitches of the notes on the bass, not the notes as conventionally written for the bass. If it were the latter, then there wouldn't be an 8vb. Therefore, the following G is also actual concert pitch.

I'm kinda confused. Does this mean that the notes on the bass clef are written one octave higher than actual pitch, and the notes on the treble clef are written as actual pitch?

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by beerthebear

I'm kinda confused. Does this mean that the notes on the bass clef are written one octave higher than actual pitch, and the notes on the treble clef are written as actual pitch?

No. I mean that normally, for the bass, all notes, whether on the bass clef or the treble clef, are written an octave higher than they actually sound. In the example you gave, however, NONE of the notes are written in the conventional bass fashion--instead, they are written as they actually sound. Again, that's why you have the 8vb under the bass clef notes. The 8vb is telling you what the actual pitches are. Without the 8vb, that would be how those notes are usually written for the bass.

[beerthebear]

Originally Posted by Richard Lindsey

No. I mean that normally, for the bass, all notes, whether on the bass clef or the treble clef, are written an octave higher than they actually sound. In the example you gave, however, NONE of the notes are written in the conventional bass fashion--instead, they are written as they actually sound. Again, that's why you have the 8vb under the bass clef notes. The 8vb is telling you what the actual pitches are. Without the 8vb, that would be how those notes are usually written for the bass.

If these are the way that the actual pitches are listed on this, wouldnt that mean that there would be even more range under the bass clef? Since the open E is conventionally written one octave higher? What I am trying to say is, that if this picture is supposed to show the range, and is showing the actual pitch, then shouldnt it compensate for this way under the bass clef? I appologize on my ignorance on this if it makes no sense.

[Jeff Moote]

Originally Posted by beerthebear

So just curious, what is the highest note that could be played on a standard tuned bass, if it can be higher than that G harmonic(By the way how could I play the highest G harmonic)?

Well the range for harmonics is pretty much limited only by the player's ability to make the notes sound clearly. With artificial harmonics, the range extends even further.

Originally Posted by beerthebear

If these are the way that the actual pitches are listed on this, wouldnt that mean that there would be even more range under the bass clef? Since the open E is conventionally written one octave higher? What I am trying to say is, that if this picture is supposed to show the range, and is showing the actual pitch, then shouldnt it compensate for this way under the bass clef? I appologize on my ignorance on this if it makes no sense.

I'm not really sure what you're saying but I'll clarify:
-the low E on a standard tuned bass sounds as the note on the space below the 4th ledger line below the bass clef
-music for the bass is always written an octave higher than it sounds - the low E is written as the 1st ledger line below the bass clef
-this diagram has all pitches expressed literally - the low notes are written at concert pitch using the 8vb (octave below) notation to show that they sound an octave lower than written, and 8va (octave above) to show the G an octave above the space on top of the treble clef

Does that help?

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by beerthebear

If these are the way that the actual pitches are listed on this, wouldnt that mean that there would be even more range under the bass clef? Since the open E is conventionally written one octave higher? What I am trying to say is, that if this picture is supposed to show the range, and is showing the actual pitch, then shouldnt it compensate for this way under the bass clef? I appologize on my ignorance on this if it makes no sense.

I'm not sure what you're saying, exactly. If you were to write out the actual bass clef pitches without using the 8vb, you would have to use a lot of ledger lines--sometimes, you might not even make it up to the staff proper at all. That's inconvenient and hard to read. Yes, you could do it, but it's easier to write bass parts the way they're conventionally done. That's why bass parts are written out an octave higher than they sound.

Guitar is the same way, BTW. If you wrote out guitar at its actual pitches, you would either have to (1) use an absurd number of ledger lines below the treble clef or (2) use two staves, like the piano (this second option has actually been argued for, but not adopted).