Help me build my New Modal Scale generator (beta)

[tZer]

Ok gang,

I have another online tool that I hope will help:

• Demystify modes
• Simplify modal scale construction
• Offer insight into how modes can be used for improvisation or melody construction

It is still very rough, but I just got the 'guts' working the way I think they need to and I have even created a thing I call the SVSS (Simplified Visual Scale System). The SVSS in this release is based on a 5-string base and takes the concept of patterns that get repeated to create scales and distills them into a simple, visual reference. It is sketchy now, but I believe there are legs to be found.

Have a look at it and provide me with your valuable insight and suggestions, please.

When you get there select a key (modify it with Sharp or Flat if you like) choose a mode and generate your modal scale info.

http://mydigitalinnerchild.com/_xfer...rator_v03.html

Thanks!
--tz

[Jazzin']

C flat and C natural scales both appear as C natural scales on the picture.

[WillPlay4Food]

Your SVSS doesn't show the standard 2-4, 1-2-4, 1-3-4 fingering of the major scale. It shows an open fingering version of the major scale which means you need to stretch over 5 frets.

[WillPlay4Food]

Also, on my screen, the C#/Db only shows up as C#/D. I have to highlight and drag in order to get the b to show, then I lose the C#/D portion.

Also, you might want to make your program show the correct enharmonic instead of showing a C#/Db note. I know when I was soliciting feedback for my Musical Scales (link in sig) program this was one of the most reported issues.

[dlloyd]

It looks good so far.

I'd like the option to choose a four string bass.

I don't like the way you say you can use D dorian over a C major scale to improvise. You can use the same pattern you would find if you selected D dorian, but you definitely shouldn't be thinking D dorian while you're doing that.

I'd like to see an option to select different postions.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by dlloyd

I don't like the way you say you can use D dorian over a C major scale to improvise. You can use the same pattern you would find if you selected D dorian, but you definitely shouldn't be thinking D dorian while you're doing that.

Agreed. Rather than simplifying and clarifying things, that complicates and confuses them.

[thebassclef]

I Disagree. Showing the other modes related to the one selected is a good tool to show. This helps to explain the relationship from one mode to the other once the mode selected is learned.

Granted, someone new to theory and modes will finding it somewhat confusing, not haveing the information there would only help to further confuse them later.

[tZer]

Originally Posted by WillPlay4Food

Also, on my screen, the C#/Db only shows up as C#/D. I have to highlight and drag in order to get the b to show, then I lose the C#/D portion.

Also, you might want to make your program show the correct enharmonic instead of showing a C#/Db note....

Thanks - I will fix the little b falling off the text area issue and look into the enharmonic.

Originally Posted by WillPlay4Food

Your SVSS doesn't show the standard 2-4, 1-2-4, 1-3-4 fingering of the major scale. It shows an open fingering version of the major scale which means you need to stretch over 5 frets.

I am starting with the 5-string bass and going with 2-octave scales. I plan to add 4-string for sure. So on the 4-string version, I will probably feature the 2-4, 1-2-4, 1-3-4 fingering.

I was also looking at it last night and figuring there are a number of additional positions and fingerings on the 5-string I could incorporate, so this aspect (SVSS) definietly needs refining.

I am also contemplating (choke) adding guitar fingerings too... but that is after all the important bass stuff is done!

Originally Posted by Jazzin'

C flat and C natural scales both appear as C natural scales on the picture.

Thanks! Good catch...


Excellent! Thanks for all the feedback!

I am learning this stuff myself so I am sure I am off-base on a few of my concepts.

RE: The comment regarding D Dorian over C Major:

My understanding of modes is in it's infancy, so can you offer a more effective way to communicate that concept?

Also, could you clarify for me something? Am I on-track about the concept that the D Dorian scale contains 'proper' tones that can be used against the C Major chord? - Is it the 'symantics' of saying "D Dorian" that causes it to be too complicated?

The reasoning behind that phrasing is that I am learning to relate the mode scales (Ionian = Major, Dorian = minor scale with #6 and so on). Since I am establishing a relationship between the mode name "Dorian" and the scalar intervals "minor with #6" it seems to say that recalling the mode name helps reinforce the scalar intervals you would use.

Am I just spinning down a way-too-confusing path here?

Thanks again! Keep the input coming, this is a long way from done.

[Clay_Bass]

Originally Posted by dlloyd

I don't like the way you say you can use D dorian over a C major scale to improvise. You can use the same pattern you would find if you selected D dorian, but you definitely shouldn't be thinking D dorian while you're doing that.

I'd like to see an option to select different postions.

Maybe Im misunderstanding you but why do you say you shouldnt be using D dorian over C major? All the modes are good for is basically creating different colors and pulls over a chord so I dont know why any one wouldnt be a good idea to know how to use.

Ex. Youre playing a song with a Dminor to C major chord progession. Guess what D dorian allows you to solo over 2 chords with one scale and sound hip because you dont run a d aeolin(sp) and then a C ionian like most people would.

again sorry if I misunderstood your post.

[dlloyd]

Originally Posted by thebassclef

I Disagree. Showing the other modes related to the one selected is a good tool to show. This helps to explain the relationship from one mode to the other once the mode selected is learned.

Imagine you're playing over a C major chord that is played for several bars.

Do you think playing F Lydian would work? Sure, it has the same notes as C Ionian, but when you're thinking F Lydian you're relating to F as the tonic. F is generally considered to be an avoid note in C Ionian.

Taking it back to Dorian over Ionian, the strong notes in the Dorian mode are all weak notes in the Ionian mode.

There are some instances where it does work... F Lydian sounds great over D Dorian, E Phrygian sounds great over C Ionian, but you're in the realms of chord substitution there.

Modes are not positions of scales.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by thebassclef

I Disagree. Showing the other modes related to the one selected is a good tool to show. This helps to explain the relationship from one mode to the other once the mode selected is learned.

Granted, someone new to theory and modes will finding it somewhat confusing, not haveing the information there would only help to further confuse them later.

It's not showing the other modes that can be derived from the initial mode that's the problem, to me, though I think that way of teaching modes is often overused and misleading. It's the idea of talking about, say, using the F# locrian scale over a G major chord. That's something that really doesn't have much meaning. First, it ignores the reality that using that set of notes with a G major chord generally will not, and should not, be heard as using F# locrian--unless maybe the basic inderlying modality of the piece or section of a piece is F# locrian, which is relatively rare. More often, using the set of notes G A B C D E F# G with a G major chord (even if in your mind you're starting with F#) will be heard as using G major, and IMO this is in most cases both a simpler and clearer way of thinking about it.

Second, it seems to assume that merely starting a scale/mode from some note other than the I is tantamount to using a mode from that other note, but this isn't really the case. Much harmony, at least the relatively functional stuff, doesn't require you to switch modes every chord, and it's IMO often better if you don't; it's easier, and more harmonically cogent, to think of yourself as making different selections within a single tonality/modality rather than constantly switching to different ones. (Though there also is music that more or less requires you to switch mdoes with every chord...)

Third, it seems to assume that using a scale means anchoring yourself on a particular base note, and this isn't necessarily true either, especially for soloing. To use the G major scale, you don't have to be anchored on G.

[dlloyd]

Originally Posted by tZer

RE: The comment regarding D Dorian over C Major:

My understanding of modes is in it's infancy, so can you offer a more effective way to communicate that concept?

Give different positions of the modes, including strong tones (1, 3, 5, 7)

Also, could you clarify for me something? Am I on-track about the concept that the D Dorian scale contains 'proper' tones that can be used against the C Major chord? - Is it the 'symantics' of saying "D Dorian" that causes it to be too complicated?

Yes and yes. Think of it in relation to chord tones. Chord tones are stronger than non-chord tones and you generally want to be hitting them on strong beats, using the non-chord tones as passing tones.

When you're thinking "D dorian" you should be thinking D, F, A are the strongest tones, with D being the strongest of all. When you're thinking "C ionian" you should be thinking C, E, G are the strongest tones, with C being the strongest. D, F and A are all relatively weak tones over a C major chord.

[FretFree]

Originally Posted by tZer

I am starting with the 5-string bass and going with 2-octave scales. I plan to add 4-string for sure. So on the 4-string version, I will probably feature the 2-4, 1-2-4, 1-3-4 fingering.

I have to chime in and say that even over 2+ octaves the "1 finger per fret" fingering on scales is probably more common.

It's at least what I use.

I have no problem with people doing something different, this is just what I have observed.

[tZer]

Originally Posted by dlloyd

Imagine you're playing over a C major chord that is played for several bars.

Do you think playing F Lydian would work? Sure, it has the same notes as C Ionian, but when you're thinking F Lydian you're relating to F as the tonic. F is generally considered to be an avoid note in C Ionian.

Taking it back to Dorian over Ionian, the strong notes in the Dorian mode are all weak notes in the Ionian mode.

There are some instances where it does work... F Lydian sounds great over D Dorian, E Phrygian sounds great over C Ionian, but you're in the realms of chord substitution there.

Modes are not positions of scales.

The angle I was coming from was not to say, "Play an F Lydian scale over a C Major chord" rather if you have a C major chord and want to be elsewhere on the neck, say where F would be the root of a scale, you could reference the Lydian intervals and be 'safe' in your note choice. Being fully aware that you are working against a C Major chord should help inform you as to what notes NOT to favor - like the F itself, however - but you could still remain positioned to play an F Lydian scale and opt for tones other then the root.

I understand that choosing another scale (E Phrygian, G Mixolydian or A Aeolian) would be much more favorable scales to use being that their roots are all good tones over the C Major chord, but it does not exclude the fact that F Lydian and B Locrian have 'tones of value'.

But I hear you, loud and clear. Maybe in my offering of the additional scales (modes) that can be referenced, I should be offering FAVORABLE MODES and ADDITIONAL...

So, it could look more like this:

Chord Chosen: C Ionian (Major)

Favorable (Chord Tones):
E Phrygian (minor b2) - (Third)
G Mixolydian (Dom 7/Major b7) - (Fifth)
B Locrian (minor b2 b5) - (Seventh)

Additional, less favorable (Non-chord tones):
F Lydian (minor #6) - (fourth)
A Aeolian (minor) - (sixth)

??? Thoughts ???

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by Clay_Bass

Maybe Im misunderstanding you but why do you say you shouldnt be using D dorian over C major? All the modes are good for is basically creating different colors and pulls over a chord so I dont know why any one wouldnt be a good idea to know how to use.

Ex. Youre playing a song with a Dminor to C major chord progession. Guess what D dorian allows you to solo over 2 chords with one scale and sound hip because you dont run a d aeolin(sp) and then a C ionian like most people would.

again sorry if I misunderstood your post.

Actually, that's a good point. One time you could profitably use D dorian with a C major chord is when the basic underlying modality of the musical space you're currently in is D dorian. You just make different selections from the available notes for each chord. However, this wouldn't necessarily lead to any hipper sounds, because you're still fishing in the same note pool, if you know what I mean. You're still dealing with the same principles of tension/release and dissonance/consonance with the respective chords, and you're doing it with the same toolbox.

Conversely, think of reversing that progression so that it goes C Dm, and imagine that the underlying tonality is C. You could profitably use C ionian major for both chords; again, you just make different note selections to fit what you're trying to do with the chords.

One of the points I'm trying to make is that a mode-per-chord approach is often unnecessarily complicated and can obscure harmonic relationships. If we always view each chord as a separate little harmonic world that requires its own separate mode or scale, we can miss the fact that groups of chords (progressions) are often related to each other under a single overarching tonality/modality, and may be best thought of as working in that way.

As I say this, please note the qualifications. I don't claim that what I say is always the case, as there are exceptions to everything. But I do think it is important not to make things more complicated than they need to be.

[tZer]

Originally Posted by dlloyd

Give different positions of the modes, including strong tones (1, 3, 5, 7)



Yes and yes. Think of it in relation to chord tones. Chord tones are stronger than non-chord tones and you generally want to be hitting them on strong beats, using the non-chord tones as passing tones.

When you're thinking "D dorian" you should be thinking D, F, A are the strongest tones, with D being the strongest of all. When you're thinking "C ionian" you should be thinking C, E, G are the strongest tones, with C being the strongest. D, F and A are all relatively weak tones over a C major chord.

DING! LIGHTBULB MOMENT! Thanks! That is very helpful! I will be re-constructing the 'suggested other modes' mechanism to deal primarily with chord tones (1, 3, 5, 7)!!! That is the tip I needed!

And, I might add, that simple explanation just increased my understanding of what the modes 'mean to me' significantly!

An update will be forthcoming to the mode generator and I will put a strong emphasis on the chord tone modes as 'favorable modes' to choose when looking for guidance.

Chord Chosen: C Ionian (Major)

Favorable (Chord Tones):
E Phrygian (minor b2) - (Third)
G Mixolydian (Dom 7/Major b7) - (Fifth)
B Locrian (minor b2 b5) - (Seventh)

Additional, less favorable (Non-chord tones):
F Lydian (minor #6) - (fourth)
A Aeolian (minor) - (sixth)

Thanks! Wow, it feels good to have those lightbulb moments!

[thebassclef]

I See and agree that the 1, 3 ,5, 7, method would work better than showing the First note in the mode as it's name.

[thebassclef]

Originally Posted by FretFree

I have to chime in and say that even over 2+ octaves the "1 finger per fret" fingering on scales is probably more common.

And isn't this the reason that those of us that tune 5 strings EADGC do this, so we do not have to jump around the neck so much.

Another Idea, maybe eventually show alternate tunings. Nothing crazy, just the standards like EADGC, Dropped D, "Blues" Tuning, Etc...

[dlloyd]

Originally Posted by tZer

But I hear you, loud and clear. Maybe in my offering of the additional scales (modes) that can be referenced, I should be offering FAVORABLE MODES and ADDITIONAL...

So, it could look more like this:

Chord Chosen: C Ionian (Major)

Favorable (Chord Tones):
E Phrygian (minor b2) - (Third)
G Mixolydian (Dom 7/Major b7) - (Fifth)
B Locrian (minor b2 b5) - (Seventh)

Additional, less favorable (Non-chord tones):
F Lydian (minor #6) - (fourth)
A Aeolian (minor) - (sixth)

??? Thoughts ???

Apart from the typo, it starts getting very messy and confusing.

B Locrian would not sound good over a C major chord.

Edit: The typo I was referring to was the "F lydian (minor #6)" bit.

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally Posted by tZer

So, it could look more like this:

Chord Chosen: C Ionian (Major)

Favorable:
E Phrygian (minor b2)
G Mixolydian (Dom 7/Major b7)
A Aeolian (minor)

Additional, less favorable:
F Lydian (minor #6)
B Locrian (minor b2 b5)

??? Thoughts ???

The problem I still have with this is that in many cases, it's really a bunch of distinctions without differences. To me, in the context of more or less functional harmony, it's just not that meaningful simply to say, without elucidation, that you can play E phrygian, A aeolian, or G mixolydian over a C chord. I mean, you can, but it doesn't help much. The reason is that you're still looking at the same set of notes, and the chord tones (C E G) and nonchord tones (D F A B) are still exactly what they are. You have the same avoid/prefer issues.

Where I think different modes are worth thinking about, again in the context of more or less functional harmony, is less in relation to each individual chord and more in relation to what's going on harmonically in the piece as a whole. For example, imagine you have a piece that's in A min (aeolian). If you encounter a C major in the course of that piece, you can think of continuing to use A aeolian with it, because that chord "fits" within the harmonic context of A aeolian. But if you hit a C major in the context of a musical area that's in C major, you might as well keep using C ionian. If you have a sequence Am G in the A aeolian tune, you can keep using A aeolian for both; just select the appropriate notes from the note pool. If you see that sequence in a C major musical space, you can keep using C ionian; again, just select the appropriate notes.

I'm afraid I may be muddying the waters rather than clarifying them....