Help me with this Scale Chart!

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by Phil Smith
Why do I need to see some chart, when I can just listen to the song and create my own based on the bass and the chords the pianist is playing?

The abscence of specified chords on a piece of paper that you have does not mean they are not in the tune. Is that so hard for you to hear Bruce?

No, no - Miles Davis' actual chart for the sessions - there is a photograph on page 70 of Ashley Kahn's book "Kind of Blue" - taken by Columbia recording engineer Fred Plaut.

So - the 5 scales are written out and there is a hand-written instruction above which says :

"play in the sound of the scales"

So - how could you (as in one) have played at this session - just thinking about chords and not scales?


(If you were more concerned with trying to understand what I'm saying and not with scoring points about who has the best ear - you might have realised this was what I meant!
)

[Phil Smith]

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
No, no - Miles Davis' actual chart for the sessions - there is a photograph on page 70 of Ashley Kahn's book "Kind of Blue" - taken by Columbia recording engineer Fred Plaut.

So - the 5 scales are written out and there is a hand-written instruction above which says :

"play in the sound of the scales"

So - how could you (as in one) have played at this session - just thinking about chords and not scales?


(If you were more concerned with trying to understand what I'm saying and not with scoring points about who has the best ear - you might have realised this was what I meant!
)

The question becomes, who is the chart for? The pianist isn't playing the scales or the modes nor the bass player. To me this is to instruct the soloist to come up with melodic ideas over a particular harmonic structure.

[hateater]

Originally posted by lowerclef
[b]Oh, dear!

Either I'm not understanding you guys, or you're not understanding me...

Yes, the triad notes are highlighted in the exercise, but the name of the thread is "Help me with this Scale Chart" and the page itself says "5-String Scale Patterns." If it was merely intended as an arpeggio exercise, why include the scale notes? Why call it a scale exercise?

My teacher wants me to learn all of the ways to play the major scale and he also wants me to learn each arpeggio for each position. He just didnt want to give me seperate sheets with one showing the scales only and one showing the arpeggios only.

[lowerclef]

Originally posted by hateater
My teacher wants me to learn all of the ways to play the major scale and he also wants me to learn each arpeggio for each position. He just didnt want to give me seperate sheets with one showing the scales only and one showing the arpeggios only.

Well okay then, it is a scale exercise, Wulf, straight from the horse's mouth. And as I said much earlier, the arpeggios are highlighted and it's good to practice those. I would throw in the tensions as well, but it's a start.

HATEATER!! So good to have you back! This has kinda degenerated into an argument about modal jazz, so sorry we all got carried away and left you on the sidelines there. I will sum up my position shortly.

Bruce, I'll have to take your word about the original Miles chart because I've never seen it. I do believe you, though. But to answer your question about playing modal jazz, I still say it's possible to do it with chordal theory. If you have a sufficiently trained ear and can hear the piano chords, there's no reason you can't play over it. Even if you had nothing but a mode chart, you could still make some easy chord structures and find something appropriate to play.

But you know what? I'll sacrifice that whole point and concede right now for the sake of argument that modes are the only way to go to learn modal jazz. My next question is, so what? (No pun intended.) We're talking about a beginning student learning a scale chart or whatever, and I was just making the point that I feel the chordal method is far more beneficial for learning to hear and play than the scalar method. I believe it will carry him much further in the long run for playing many different styles. Maybe he'll get a modal jazz gig someday, but more than likely he'll play rock, pop, blues, funk, reggae, straight ahead, country, or whatever.

How about this:

Hateater, learn your exercise exactly the way your teacher wants you to. Then try out some of the stuff I suggested, and check out Carol's stuff. Let us all know which worked better for helping you land a gig. We'll let you decide...

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by Phil Smith
The question becomes, who is the chart for? The pianist isn't playing the scales or the modes nor the bass player. To me this is to instruct the soloist to come up with melodic ideas over a particular harmonic structure.

Well - if you bothered to find out about it instead of making up your own ideas, you would know that this was all there was for "Flamenco Sketches" - there were no chord charts at the sessions - and this is the whole point of "Modal Jazz" - which has obviously passed you by...

I would suggest if you are going to argue a case - then you should research and check your facts first!!

[Bruce Lindfield]

So - you only need to look at Bill Evans' liner notes for KoB :

"Flamenco SKetches is a series of five scales.."

Jimmy Heath joined Miles sextet touring this material, when Coltrane left to do his own thing and Heath had difficulty understanding the concept of Modal Jazz, he says :

"I told Miles, because he could obviously tell, "look man, I'm not having a problem with the tunes that have traditional cadences like "Autumn Leaves and "On Green Dophin Street".This "So What", you know I'm having a problem with that. Man what do you play on that?"

He Said , "You play on the white keys on the outside and all the black keys in the bridge."

Ron Carter heard this band playing Modal Jazz and relates the following :

"..the changes wer not what we would call at the time, normal changes. I couldn't figure out what was going on. I could feel the chords but I didn't know what they were doing. And the band was sounding comfortable. It took me a while to begin to understand that they weren't playing necssarily on changes as we knew them, but they were playing a form of scales."

(Quotes from Kahn's book)

[Phil Smith]

From "Bill Evans: How My Heart Sings" by Peter Pettinger:

'The pianist's pivotal role on the album was nowhere better demonstrated than in "Flamenco Sketches" where he was responsible for the alternating two chord pattern operating on four of the five 'levels' of it's sequence (there was no theme). This pattern was identical in harmony, tempo and initially in key to "Some Other Time" and Peace Piece". In fact, Davis had wanted to use "Peace Piece" for the session. (Evans must have given him the gist of it or played him a tape, as it was not yet issued). Only that morning at Davis' apartment did Evans suggest the five tiered development of "Flamenco Sketches"; they worked the levels out together at the piano. Rarified and introspective, the solos were born out of the concept and mood of "Peace Piece"; without that precedent "Flamenco Sketches' would not be.'

'Evans wrote out the chords for "Flamenco Sketches" for the band, as well as the melody and changes for "Blue In Green". Nothing was written for the other three numbers except a single-line sketch of the intro to "So What" for Paul Chambers to play, to which Evans added harmonies.' 'Essense and detail merge imperceptibly on the album to contribute to the whole. When the ruffled waters of who composed what have flowed away, the album remains a truly collaborative achievement by two mutually respectful artists'.

[hateater]

Originally posted by lowerclef
Well okay then, it is a scale exercise, Wulf, straight from the horse's mouth. And as I said much earlier, the arpeggios are highlighted and it's good to practice those. I would throw in the tensions as well, but it's a start.

HATEATER!! So good to have you back! This has kinda degenerated into an argument about modal jazz, so sorry we all got carried away and left you on the sidelines there. I will sum up my position shortly.

Bruce, I'll have to take your word about the original Miles chart because I've never seen it. I do believe you, though. But to answer your question about playing modal jazz, I still say it's possible to do it with chordal theory. If you have a sufficiently trained ear and can hear the piano chords, there's no reason you can't play over it. Even if you had nothing but a mode chart, you could still make some easy chord structures and find something appropriate to play.

But you know what? I'll sacrifice that whole point and concede right now for the sake of argument that modes are the only way to go to learn modal jazz. My next question is, so what? (No pun intended.) We're talking about a beginning student learning a scale chart or whatever, and I was just making the point that I feel the chordal method is far more beneficial for learning to hear and play than the scalar method. I believe it will carry him much further in the long run for playing many different styles. Maybe he'll get a modal jazz gig someday, but more than likely he'll play rock, pop, blues, funk, reggae, straight ahead, country, or whatever.

How about this:

Hateater, learn your exercise exactly the way your teacher wants you to. Then try out some of the stuff I suggested, and check out Carol's stuff. Let us all know which worked better for helping you land a gig. We'll let you decide...

Yeah, I have been reading what you all have been saying. Calm down guys! I am just going to do as my instructor says, he is really a great teacher. He taught buckethead guitar, so he knows at least a little bit about theory right?

[jazzbo]

Originally posted by hateater
He taught buckethead guitar, so he knows at least a little bit about theory right?

Clearly.

[Pacman]

Originally posted by jazzbo
Clearly.

Get down stairs, young man! Long tones! 1st position!

[jazzbo]

Originally posted by Pacman
Get down stairs, young man! Long tones! 1st position!

Sorry sir.

[hateater]

Originally posted by jazzbo
Sorry sir.

I don't get what you guys just said... clarify?

[Phil Smith]

Originally posted by hateater
I don't get what you guys just said... clarify?

It's an inside joke.

[hateater]

I guess so.

[kiwlm]

Hmmm, someone taught to learn scales in all positions on the fretboard and the method got bashed, from what I can see, this is the exact method as described in

Pacman's sure-fire scale practice method

Guys, I am damn confused!

[bassmantele]

Wow. this thread is a mess - where do I start? First off, those patterns have nothing to do with modes. Forget about modes. I love Miles, but someone comes to you for help in dealling with fingering exercises, and you ignore his question and start arguing about a fifty year old recording - what 's that all about?

No modes.


Those are box pattern fingering diagrams for "one finger per fret" based forms. They are all G major scales, starting at the neck, and going up towards the bridge shifting one note/fret at a time. Compare any two in a row and look for the notes that overlap between the two. You might want to put numbers at the side of the frets on each diagram to help see the pattern. He shows you where the root and triad are. I would start on the lowest root, play the scale up to the first string, then back down to the lowest note on the fifth string, and then back up to the root. Do each one individually until you feel comfortable, and then do them in adjacent pairs, playing one up and down, and then shifting to the next closest one, find the root, and play it up and down. When you can shift between adjacent pairs and nail them, do three in a row. Do the same with the triads - play them in one position, then shift to the next position and do it again.

Personally, that's more work than I want to do for bass, but I do a similar thing using the CAGED system - five of the same postiions - on guitar - and it gets me everywhere on the neck.

No offense intended - this thread just seemed to get lost from the get-go and didn't seem to be helping.