Help me study pop songs that use minor scales and diminished chords

[BillyIVbass]

I'm good on my major modes and major/minor pentatonics. Next I'd like to study uses of the harmonic minor scale and diminished chords/scales in pop music.

I was playing through Dire Straits Sultans of Swing and the progression is: Dm C Bb and A7. The odd ball out is the C# in the A7, giving it the harmonic minor sound.

Another song I've been playing through is Paul Young's Everytime You Go: Also the pre-chorus is based around Fmajor or Dminor, but the progression is: Dm, C# b5b7, Bb, B b5b7. (not sure how to type half dim.)


I don't know of a specific question other than how do I apply this to my own playing/songwriting? For years I've been seeing diminished chords and the harmoinc minor scale as things to learn, I have learned them, but can't apply them. Any songs or incite would be much appreciated.

I feel like my playing hasn't hit a wall, just I can see the grass is greener on the other side and just need a "boost" over the fence!

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by BillyIVbass

I'm good on my major modes and major/minor pentatonics. Next I'd like to study uses of the harmonic minor scale and diminished chords/scales in pop music.

I was playing through Dire Straits Sultans of Swing and the progression is: Dm C Bb and A7. The odd ball out is the C# in the A7, giving it the harmonic minor sound.

Another song I've been playing through is Paul Young's Everytime You Go: Also the pre-chorus is based around Fmajor or Dminor, but the progression is: Dm, C# b5b7, Bb, B b5b7. (not sure how to type half dim.)


I don't know of a specific question other than how do I apply this to my own playing/songwriting? For years I've been seeing diminished chords and the harmoinc minor scale as things to learn, I have learned them, but can't apply them. Any songs or incite would be much appreciated.

I feel like my playing hasn't hit a wall, just I can see the grass is greener on the other side and just need a "boost" over the fence!

mi7b5 i think you might find more of that in the jazz idiom.....look at the real book or aebersold

[BillyIVbass]

Thanks for the suggestions and the chord notation. My guitar and I used to play through Real Books, I can't get anything out of them accept expanding my chord vocabulary and practicing sight reading.

I can play "So What" or "Night in Tunisia" and can solo over them modally, but just can't take anything away from those songs.

Pop music is just something that interests me. I play in cover bands and original rock bands, so as much as I enjoy jazz it's hard to use it in my everyday playing.

[MarkTAW]

Originally Posted by BillyIVbass

I was playing through Dire Straits Sultans of Swing and the progression is: Dm C Bb and A7. The odd ball out is the C# in the A7, giving it the harmonic minor sound.

Another song I've been playing through is Paul Young's Everytime You Go: Also the pre-chorus is based around Fmajor or Dminor, but the progression is: Dm, C# b5b7, Bb, B b5b7. (not sure how to type half dim.)

What's the chord that follows the A7 chord? (Googles)

Dm          C                Bb         A    (A7)
and says at last just as the time bell rings
F                           C
thank you goodnight now it's time to go home

So A7 is the V of Dm, and F is a substitute for Dm.

You want the V to be major so you can get a proper 7 chord in - the major third in the V chord is the leading tone to the tonic (root of the I chord) and just doesn't work as well when minor. A v7 chord is bland & lifeless - two fifths separated by a minor third. YAWN. The V7 drives the "turnaround" - going back to the root after wandering around. It's how you know you've reached the end of the journey, the climax of the musical phrase & are about to go back to the beginning.

This is the definition of harmonic minor. You raise the 7th for reasons of good harmony - keeping the leading tone to the root & the tritone in the V7 chord.

Here they use F as a substitute for Dm - share two note in common.

Again, what's the chord that follows the B half diminished 7? I' guessing it's a C.

(Googles)

F               Dm     Bd                   C
Every time you go away you take a piece of me with you
F               Dm     Bd                   C
Every time you go away you take a piece of me with you

Bdim is sort of a bottomless G7 chord. So Bdim is a G7 chord without the G. Again the tritone drive the motion to the following C.

[BillyIVbass]

Thanks Mark!

[BillyIVbass]

Another song I've been trying to understand is Bonnie Raitt's Something to Talk About

(from Google)
Ab Eb
chorus Let's give them ...
Ab Eb
Let's give them ...
Ab Eb
Let's give them ...
Fm Gb Db E
How about love?

This progression I don't understand the theory at all behind it. It's in Ab up until the Gb to Db (which could suggest it changes key) but then then it hit's the E then resolves back in the key of Ab.

Is there a theory book that describes the rules or these subs?

[MarkTAW]

That song is a study in chromaticism. A simple "what scale to use" method of analysis will work here.

If you want to pick that song apart, spend less time thinking about where each chord fits into some sort of key and more time thinking about the individual notes of each chord and how they move to the notes of the next chord.

Using the chords from the end of the song when it modulates to the key of B - same chords as when it was in Ab, but three semitones higher, let's look at the E, G, B turnaround.

Name the notes in each chord.

Now figure out how many moves you need to make (how many notes change & how far the move) for each change.

Now invert each chord so that the B in each of the chords is at the bottom. That is, keep the same notes for each chord, but move the B to the bass position.

I don't now if Bonnie (or whoever wrote this song) intended for these lines to be there - if you watch her play it, she's not playing lots of chord inversions like a jazz player, but they're there and a natural byproduct of motion by thirds.

If I had to guess, the songwriter was looking to spice up the E -> B and threw the G in to change the rather predictable V -> I feel and used it as a sort of chromatic passing chord between the E and the B. They fly by pretty fast, so it's not like you're supposed to dwell on the feeling of G or being in the key of G or anything like that.

The song itself has a lot of abrupt changes, which keeps it pretty lively. Whoever wrote that song knew what they were doing.

Is there part of the harmonic minor in Billy Jean where it gets to the end of the bridge?

'Be careful what you do... blah blah blah... hey hey...'

Seems like it goes from bVImaj7 to V7. Although maybe it's two 7 chords.