help with modes please :)

fractiouslowend · #1 01-19-2011, 07:50 PM

in the key / mode way of naming scales (eg B dorian) does the B mean you start on a B note and play a dorian pattern, or do you play a the notes of the B major scale but start on the C#?

it makes more sense to me for the B (or whatever) to refer to the major scale that the mode is based off, but i have also been told the other way

and which mode is best for metal?

jacojbass · #2 01-19-2011, 07:54 PM

just think of the Dorian pattern starting on a given note (b dorian), or as the ii chord of a key (C# in the key of B). As for metal there is no best mode, In my exp pentatonic seems more common..

M0ses · #3 01-19-2011, 07:55 PM

B Dorian starts on B. So does B Phrygian.

iiipopes · #4 01-19-2011, 07:56 PM

You start on the note indicated and play the mode or pattern. For your example, B dorian would be:
B C# D E F# G# A B

Everything works for metal.

dane22 · #5 01-19-2011, 08:15 PM

I was confused at first too. B Dorian is the Dorian mode starting with the B note. This is the A major scale starting on the second note (B). Using the C major scale, D Dorian would be correct since it starts with the second note in the C major scale. As far as metal is concerned, I've heard a few different things about which mode is best. It really comes down to what chord the guitarist is playing and/or what key the song is in. You should be picking and choosing notes from the matching mode, not playing it as a bass line. Dorian is a "Minor" mode (3rd note is flat) and fits well with Minor chords found in most metal songs. Try the other "Minor" modes also.
Phrygian (based on the 3rd note of the major scale)
Aeolian (Based on the 6th note of the major scale )
Do a search on this site , there is plenty of stuff to learn here. I'm on it for the knowledge too. Good Luck.

JTE · #6 01-19-2011, 08:23 PM

Agh!!! Don't think of modes in term of what diatonic major scale they may be derived from. Learn them for what they are. Dorian is a sound, you get that sound from a scale built by building it W H W W W H W. If you start on B, it's B Dorian.

John

fractiouslowend · #7 01-19-2011, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTE

Agh!!! Don't think of modes in term of what diatonic major scale they may be derived from. Learn them for what they are. Dorian is a sound, you get that sound from a scale built by building it W H W W W H W. If you start on B, it's B Dorian.

John

true, but they are derived from the major scale, and this is the only frame of reference i had.

anyway thanks guys, that's been bugging me for a while.

the 'best for metal' question was a joke by the way, kinda thought you guys would have picked up on that

JTE · #8 01-19-2011, 09:07 PM

Well that's why I find modes so pointless in the real world. They are presented wrong, they're taught to be utilized wrong, and they're not as useful as people claim.

Modes are useful for specific sounds. Learn the whole-step/half-step construction and the SOUND of each mode, or don't waste time on them at all until you have a firm understanding of how chords are built and how chords work together in a key.

Not understanding that B Dorian is the Dorian mode built from the B note is exactly due to the horrible way modes are presented as a panacea that they simply aren't.

Sorry for the rant, but if wherever you were learning the modes was done right, you wouldn't have had the question.

John

fractiouslowend · #9 01-19-2011, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTE

Well that's why I find modes so pointless in the real world. They are presented wrong, they're taught to be utilized wrong, and they're not as useful as people claim.

Modes are useful for specific sounds. Learn the whole-step/hsl-step construction and the SOUND of each mode, or don't waste timevon them at all until you have a firm understanding of how chords are built and how chords work together in a key.

Not understanding that B Dorian is the Dorian mode built from the B note is exactly due to the horrible way modes are presented as a panacea that they simply aren't.

Sorry for the rant, but if wherever you were learning the modes was done right, you wouldn't have had the question.

John

i know what you mean!
i've been trying to teach myself, but like you said, it's not explained very well by most sites or people and because of the way they explain i couldn't see any point in doing it.

that's why i am trying to learn how the modes are constructed rather than thinking of them as different versions of the major scale.
the only thing i couldn't find an answer for was the way they are named.

On a different note, i found a website with a whole bunch of different scales tabbed out.
on this site there is superlocrian and ultralocrian (and a couple of other super or ultra modes i think too), what is the difference between these and the 'normal' mode?

and how does the naming of modes work if there are more or less than 7 notes?

Stick_Player · #10 01-19-2011, 09:24 PM

Quote:

and which mode is best for metal?

The fifth mode of a harmonic minor scale - the Phrygian Dominant scale.

LM Bass · #11 01-19-2011, 09:36 PM

Thinking of the "parent scale" makes it easy for you to remember the flats and sharps,
but it's important that you learn to hear the mode and its unique sound. I would suggest having a friend practise with you -they play the chord, and you experiment with the mode. Don't play any other notes, just strictly the notes from the mode you are working on, go slow. Each mode has characteristic sounds, and you want to be able to "hear" them as well as know them theoretically.

Modes are not the be-all-and-end-all in music, but you can think of them like a "paint by numbers" kit. You learn that Green #5 goes here, but you aren't really making art yet.

MalcolmAmos · #12 01-20-2011, 05:47 AM

Here is an old cut and paste that goes into detail on something about Parallel Modes, which I find easy to use. http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/...698#post143698

jacojbass · #13 01-20-2011, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stick_Player

The fifth mode of a harmonic minor scale - the Phrygian Dominant scale.

wrong, phrygian would indicate a minor sound. It is typically called mixo b9 b13, which also reflects the chord type it can be used over.

Febs · #14 01-20-2011, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jacojbass

wrong, phrygian would indicate a minor sound.

Yes, "phrygian" would, but "phrygian dominant" has a major third. If you want to call it mixolydian b9 b13, I wouldn't argue with you, but I don't think you can say that "phrygian dominant" is "wrong." It is a fairly common name for that scale.

Chris K · #15 01-20-2011, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fractiouslowend

true, but they are derived from the major scale, and this is the only frame of reference i had.)

Wrong (just for the record - there's nothing wrong with learning the modes starting from the major scale).

Modes were never derived from any scale. They were once equally valued scales starting on the notes of the diatonic system: ABCDEFGA. These notes were named after the first seven letters of the alphabet. But it is incorrect as well to say the modes were 'derived from' the Aeolian scale.

Chris K · #16 01-20-2011, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Febs

Yes, "phrygian" would, but "phrygian dominant" has a major third. If you want to call it mixolydian b9 b13, I wouldn't argue with you, but I don't think you can say that "phrygian dominant" is "wrong." It is a fairly common name for that scale.

IMHO both names are pretty common but needlessly misty as well. It would be much more easy to call it the 5th mode of the harmonic minor scale.

Let's keep our frame of reference as simple as possible.

Mark Perry · #17 01-20-2011, 08:15 AM

The Ionian is the major scale.
The Dorian is the natural minor with a major 6.
The Phrygian is the natural minor with a minor 2nd.
The Lydian is the major scale with a raised 4th.
The Mixolydian is the major scale with a minor 7th.
The aeolian is the natural minor scale. And the Locrian is the minor with minor 2nd and diminished 5th.

These one or two notes define the sound of each mode.

Drifta · #18 01-20-2011, 08:26 AM

I learned the arpeggios before the modes, I think it made it easier. Try doing all the chords, Imaj7 , iim7 etc etc then go back to the modes

Stick_Player · #19 01-20-2011, 08:32 AM

Quote:

wrong, phrygian would indicate a minor sound.

jacojbass,

The scale I am refering to IS commonly called the Phrygian Dominant (fifth mode of the harmonic minor scale).

I'll demonstrate:

Start with an A Harmonic Minor scale (A, B, C, D, E, F, G#, A). Locate the fifth note. Use this as the first note of the new scale. Now you have a Phrygian Dominant: E, F, G#, A, B, C, D, E.

And, it is a 'fav' of metal. Do a little research.

Febs · #20 01-20-2011, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris K

IMHO both names are pretty common but needlessly misty as well. It would be much more easy to call it the 5th mode of the harmonic minor scale.

Let's keep our frame of reference as simple as possible.

Should we dispense with the Dorian, Phrygian, etc. names as well and refer to those scales as the second mode of the major scale, third mode of the major scale, etc.?